Improving the 'Graf Zeppelin' Aircraft Carrier - ship and class

[sloreck]

If the German aircraft carriers are to be part of raiding groups that include heavy ships, there is little point in having heavy armament other than AA or overmuch armor. Any RN (or other) ship that can trash the Panzerschiff with them is not going to be deterred by anything the carrier might have in terms of gun armament, and can certainly go through any armor the carrier would have so don't overdo it. In terms of the airwing, unlike in the Pacific you are not looking at carrier vs carrier battles. Here the air wing will be hitting merchants or convoy escorts without air cover. Navalized Ju-87 hopefully capable of carrying a torpedo would be adequate for attack, and you only need a limited number of fighters. Maybe some other type as a scout bomber (small numbers). Sure, if you run in to the equivalent of a USN carrier task group they are toast, but that is not what they are designed to do.

Building an experimental carrier, maybe starting off some Japanese plans properly modified, in the 30s is reasonable. Carriers should be the last part of Plan Z to be built, and since the war starts in 1939 vice 1946...

 

[RamscoopRaider]

If the German aircraft carriers are to be part of raiding groups that include heavy ships, there is little point in having heavy armament other than AA or overmuch armor. Any RN (or other) ship that can trash the Panzerschiff with them is not going to be deterred by anything the carrier might have in terms of gun armament, and can certainly go through any armor the carrier would have so don't overdo it. In terms of the airwing, unlike in the Pacific you are not looking at carrier vs carrier battles. Here the air wing will be hitting merchants or convoy escorts without air cover. Navalized Ju-87 hopefully capable of carrying a torpedo would be adequate for attack, and you only need a limited number of fighters. Maybe some other type as a scout bomber (small numbers). Sure, if you run in to the equivalent of a USN carrier task group they are toast, but that is not what they are designed to do.

Building an experimental carrier, maybe starting off some Japanese plans properly modified, in the 30s is reasonable. Carriers should be the last part of Plan Z to be built, and since the war starts in 1939 vice 1946...

Well the armor and armament might still be useful, in order to ensure the carrier doesn't need babysitting from escorting destroyers, destroyer escorts or frigates while the heavy surface units are slugging it out. You at least want your raider CV tough enough that a spray of 4"-5" shells don't render it incapable of flight operations after quick repairs, and armed enough to deter accurate torpedo runs. Because your raiding group would not be bringing any destroyers or smaller units, so you would need to bring at least one CL or heavier to escort the CV, have the heavy surface units do that, and risk being distracted while slugging it put with RN heavies, or risk your CV being lost, or you could do what they did and build it heavily armed and armored

 

[sloreck]

Somewhere between unarmed/unarmored, which was not my suggestion, and the over-armored and armed GZ, lies a potentially useful CV/CVL for Germany. Trying to build something that does everything often, if not usually does not end well. Also, while you don't want to throw assets away, if you are not willing to hazard a ship (or any other military asset human or mechanical) then why build it.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Isn't that the best use of any Germany surface ship after June 1941?

You move the fleet to Norway to force the UK to try to protect all the convoys. There are fuel shortages so the Germans only get a few Sorties. The Germans keep constant air and submarine pressure on these convoys, and if one can find a clear numerical advantage in good weather on a large convoy, the Germans go to sea and wipe out the convoy. And realistically, even the Germans know that in a best case scenario, they can only do this 3-4 times before losses pile up and the Germans run out of ships. I have to look at dates and numbers, but couldn't we have 1 CV, 2BB, and 2 Pocket Battleships. The UK is probably thinking 1 CV, 4 BB, 4 CA is the minimum escort that guarantees safety of the convoy. So we have now forced very big convoys, and these will be inefficient. Or the UK tries to go with lighter escort with just a BB and cruiser or two, and the Germans can pounce for the win. And of course, the British will try to bait the Germans out with a tempting convoy where the main fleet is hidden under some storm front waiting to counter attack. Plus carrier raids on the German anchorage.

The only good argument for surfaces ships in France is that these ships consume a lot of RAF attacks that otherwise attack German industries.

Pretty much this probably by 1943!?

Of course by the time the carrier is available for this the British have 4 Modern BBs (POW sunk) the USA has about 6 (North Colorado Class and South Dakota Class) + lots of older BBs that can sit with the convoys so could conceivably maintain 2 or 3 modern and 2 or 3 older BBs to cover these convoys

Once the German fleet starts to get attrited either through temporary damage or sinking / Total Constructive Loss these assets can be sent elsewhere.

 

[jsb]

If the German aircraft carriers are to be part of raiding groups that include heavy ships, there is little point in having heavy armament other than AA or overmuch armor. Any RN (or other) ship that can trash the Panzerschiff with them is not going to be deterred by anything the carrier might have in terms of gun armament, and can certainly go through any armor the carrier would have so don't overdo it. In terms of the airwing, unlike in the Pacific you are not looking at carrier vs carrier battles. Here the air wing will be hitting merchants or convoy escorts without air cover. Navalized Ju-87 hopefully capable of carrying a torpedo would be adequate for attack, and you only need a limited number of fighters. Maybe some other type as a scout bomber (small numbers). Sure, if you run in to the equivalent of a USN carrier task group they are toast, but that is not what they are designed to do.

Any heavy raider would be very unlikely to have sufficient escort compared to the RN DDs once you add in convoy and covering force so I would think it makes sense as the CV might detach as the heavy gun ship closes the convoy?

I would suggest that a scout/light bomber and fighter defence air group would work as its main purpose is scouting for ships/convoys/RN and strike would only be a secondary concern the fighters would be need for self defence and to stop shadowing?

 

[BlondieBC]

Pretty much this probably by 1943!?

Of course by the time the carrier is available for this the British have 4 Modern BBs (POW sunk) the USA has about 6 (North Colorado Class and South Dakota Class) + lots of older BBs that can sit with the convoys so could conceivably maintain 2 or 3 modern and 2 or 3 older BBs to cover these convoys

Once the German fleet starts to get attrited either through temporary damage or sinking / Total Constructive Loss these assets can be sent elsewhere.

Agreed.

And this is why to me, these ATL are not fun. Originally I wanted to write a WW2 ATL for Europe, but it always works out the same. The more the Germans or the Italians sink, the more it helps the Japanese. So if I write this ATL with a brilliant German admiral, and his fleet sinks a lot more ships, all I have done is weaken the forces Japan faces. The USA would simply transfer ships to the Pacific slower, and if pushed came to shove, you could just have a new CV or BB added to the Atlantic fleet. So we end up with net logic chains of "Germans kick ass" therefore "USA 1st Marine division is exterminated" therefore, "Marianna Turkey shoot has 3 more Japanese CV that die"

Now all this would change if the Germans can win in the east, but I just don't see this as a war winner. So these ATL are probably best as short stories with a naval component only.

 

[BlondieBC]

Any heavy raider would be very unlikely to have sufficient escort compared to the RN DDs once you add in convoy and covering force so I would think it makes sense as the CV might detach as the heavy gun ship closes the convoy?

I would suggest that a scout/light bomber and fighter defence air group would work as its main purpose is scouting for ships/convoys/RN and strike would only be a secondary concern the fighters would be need for self defence and to stop shadowing?

I would be tempted to use one to flush the game, one to kill the game. The CV is fast and it planes will be easy to detect. At least which direction they are coming from. So put the CV in front of the convoy to try to drive it an area where I have concentrated the main surface fleet. Ideally the BB will be support by land based air. And U-boats will try to pick out stragglers.

Of course complicated battle plans often go off course, and then fall apart.

 

[lionhead]

Capture a cruiser?

How does one achieve that?

well they had captured Dutch cruisers, like HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën and HNLMS Kijkduin. They were only launched in December 1941 though, so a conversion to CVL is not going to happen. But they could have, if they might have towed them to German ports.

 

[PSL]

Thanks I did not know about De Grasse

The problem I think the Germans have is one of Geography - their ships need to be fast in order to stay away from allied cruisers and Modern BBs - a conversion of a freighter or liner is not going to cut it

The Dutch ships are IMP too small for carrier ops - it's okay having a purpose built tubby hulled Casablanca but these were slow 18 knot purpose built ships not intended for the role that these German Carriers would have to perform.

No what Germany needs is fast hulls (well over 30 knots) that are heavy enough to offer the necessary stability (well over 10,000 tons) so I think we are left with the Zep and conversion of Seydlitz and Lützow (don't sell her to the Russians) to fast light fleet carriers

The problem I am now faced with is now they are built - ie it being late 42 at best likely later - what do they do?

Try to interdict arctic convoys?

Helping German surface raiders running the GIUK GAP then intercept convoys.

The KH-1 & 2 were to be launched as 8,800 ton hull [10,800 ton full] and yet the postwar cruiser was actually completed as 11,500tons full. So there is wiggle room to develop it further . One hull was launched in 1944 at 5-6kt , while the other post war. With right emphasis it could be launched by 1942 and completed in 1943, depending on its importance to KM. Historically about 7kt of work was completed on the three captured unfinished cruisers by 1940. To complete all three should require 35kt or another 28kt.

As a matter of interest unfinished French/Dutch DD/TB warships were worked on through 1944 with 23kt completed. But since this was spread over dozens of unfinished warships, little was actually completed during the war. Going on the above - that foreign industry redirected could have completed 2 of three cruisers - as escort carriers by 1944.

http://navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_cr_de_zeven_provincien.htm

 

[Bobsalt]

A short summary of why actually finishing the GZ was a bad idea would be this: If the KM had only one carrier, that carrier would only have been of any use against a navy that had zero carriers. If they had tried to use the GZ against the RN the KM would very shortly thereafter have become a navy that once again had zero carriers.

 

[thaddeus]

If the German aircraft carriers are to be part of raiding groups that include heavy ships, there is little point in having heavy armament other than AA or overmuch armor. Any RN (or other) ship that can trash the Panzerschiff with them is not going to be deterred by anything the carrier might have in terms of gun armament, and can certainly go through any armor the carrier would have so don't overdo it.

the wartime conversions projects did not include 5.9" guns and little reference to armor except as it relates to torpedo protection, so they endorsed your scenario

(Europa, Project Jade, Weser was already constructed as warship)

 

[Dilvish]

the wartime conversions projects did not include 5.9" guns and little reference to armor except as it relates to torpedo protection, so they endorsed your scenario

(Europa, Project Jade, Weser was already constructed as warship)

I wonder how many of those wartime conversion projects were serious projects, and how many were just design studies, busy work perhaps?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I wonder how many of those wartime conversion projects were serious projects, and how many were just design studies, busy work perhaps?

Are you suggesting that these designers were desperately trying to look busy in order to keep from being sent to the Russian front?

Tsk Tsk shame on you sir! (Antony Preston wrote the same in his 1976 illustrated History of the Navies of WW2 so you are in good company )

 

[CalBear]

Well the armor and armament might still be useful, in order to ensure the carrier doesn't need babysitting from escorting destroyers, destroyer escorts or frigates while the heavy surface units are slugging it out. You at least want your raider CV tough enough that a spray of 4"-5" shells don't render it incapable of flight operations after quick repairs, and armed enough to deter accurate torpedo runs. Because your raiding group would not be bringing any destroyers or smaller units, so you would need to bring at least one CL or heavier to escort the CV, have the heavy surface units do that, and risk being distracted while slugging it put with RN heavies, or risk your CV being lost, or you could do what they did and build it heavily armed and armored

Problem is that the design was fatally flawed. It was neither fish nor fowl nor good red meat. The difficulty is that the German naval architects had absolutly no idea what the ship was meant to do since the KM was really at a loss of what the ship would be used for given the strategic needs of the Reich. Sending a carrier out alone is more or less an assured way to have it sunk. Carriers also use enormous amounts of fuel (both for the ship itself and for the airwing which has to be active, at least as a CAP, during all daylight ours) but the KM had virtually no logistical tail. The entire KM surface force, as it was managed, was built to be one and dones.

 

[CalBear]

BTW:

Graf Zeppelin was 34,000 tons. Carried 42 aircraft.

This was 11,000 tons and carried 34 aircraft (all of which were vastly superior to anything the Reich even dreamed of basing on a carrier.

Just sayin'.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

BTW:

Graf Zeppelin was 34,000 tons. Carried 42 aircraft.

This was 11,000 tons and carried 34 aircraft (all of which were vastly superior to anything the Reich even dreamed of basing on a carrier.

Just sayin'.

Makes sense from a simplicity of construction POV

Problem is its top speed was 18 - 20 knots - that's not going to serve in the environment that our potential German flat top is going to serve in - which is only realistically the area between the Greenland- Iceland - UK Gap and Norway outside of twin engine bomber range operating from Norway - and this area is swarming with Crusiers and Fast BBs - hell an older Revenge class or US Standard will run it down

Also slower German warships such as the Panzerschiffe were often left behind on a Tirpitz / Scharnhorst sortie into the 'arctic wastes' as they were considered too slow at 25/26 knots to keep up.

 

[CalBear]

Makes sense from a simplicity of construction POV

Problem is its top speed was 18 - 20 knots - that's not going to serve in the environment that our potential German flat top is going to serve in - which is only realistically the area between the Greenland- Iceland - UK Gap and Norway outside of twin engine bomber range operating from Norway - and this area is swarming with Crusiers and Fast BBs - hell an older Revenge class or US Standard will run it down

Also slower German warships such as the Panzerschiffe were often left behind on a Tirpitz / Scharnhorst sortie into the 'arctic wastes' as they were considered too slow at 25/26 knots to keep up.

The Independence class CVL could hit 31+ knots all day long.

The ship in the picture is the USS Cowpens CVL-25

 

[thaddeus]

the wartime conversions projects did not include 5.9" guns and little reference to armor except as it relates to torpedo protection, so they endorsed your scenario

(Europa, Project Jade, Weser was already constructed as warship)

I wonder how many of those wartime conversion projects were serious projects, and how many were just design studies, busy work perhaps?

probably not realistic chance to complete but my point was the evolution in design that deleted heavy guns not projecting a completion date

 

[Some Bloke]

How much space/tonnage would removing the heavy guns free up and how much would that represent in terms of aircraft capacity? If we assume 1 aircraft per turret i.e. 8, that's still a roughly 10% increase. 50 aircraft rather than 42 could allow for greater flexibility.

30 bombers (18 dive, 12 torpedo?) and 20 fighters? Better coverage assuming that there's a half decent seaborne fighter available.

Question is, how would this affect the other nations? Earlier ordering/laying down of the Joffre and the Painleve for France? Conversion of the Aquilla in 1939 rather than 41? Changes to Fleet Air Arm procurement? IOTL the Fleet Air Arm tabled the idea of a navalised spitfire. They might just about be able to make a convincing case for the Sea Hurricane here. Maybe a monoplane counterpart for OTL's Albacore?

This is just pre war. The war itself is a whole different question.

 

[eltf177]

Did the wings of the Bf109T, Ju87T and Fi167 fold? If they didn't was that an important reason why Graf Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B carried a small number of aircraft for their size?

Both the Bf-109T and Ju-87T had folding wings, the Fi-167 did not.