If Prussia confiscated all or part of Bohemia from Austria in 1866, how would she administer it?

[raharris1973]

We know in OTL Bismarck did not do this in the end, and the reasons may have been sound.

But, supposing the Prussians do it. I've seen different options discussed. The smallest being Prussia taking Austrian Silesia, another version where the Prussians take Austrian Silesia and German speaking northwest Bohemia (basically the Sudetenland) and another where Prussia takes all the Bohemian crown lands.

Would these areas simply be added to Prussia or exist as a separate state within the North German Confederation and then German Empire? All German states were monarchical, so who would the Prince or King of Bohemia logically be?

If the annexed territory all goes to Prussia, that kind of surrounds Saxony on several sides - might Bohemian annexation be coupled with annexation of all Saxony in toto?

 

[Anderman]

Prussia did the liom shar of fighting for winning side (did have some allies) so Bohemia goes to Prussia and becomes another province.

 

[Kirook]

They might just keep it in personal union, since that was how it was held under Austria. That way it becomes Prussian territory without absorbing the entire thing into Prussia itself. (Especially because if they annex all of Bohemia and Saxony, they’re going to have some problems on their hands as the other European powers sit up and take notice of the massive shift in the balance of power. Russia or Britain might take the opportunity to get involved.)

 

[Takonas]

From the current knowledge we have on Bismarck's motives, it is a good guess to assume that the confiscated lands would be treated the same as other German lands brought in during the later Prussian-Franco war of 1870. However, I personally don't believe that he would perform that move as it would showcase him as a man of war and not of peace (its kind've important to keep a good diplomatic status).
I believe he would instead not confiscate lands in the first place due to the diplomatic backlash but if he did then he would most likely administer it as a very devolved state, personal union, or a territory of Prussia but soon to be released.

 

[Mikestone8]

We know in OTL Bismarck did not do this in the end, and the reasons may have been sound.

But, supposing the Prussians do it. I've seen different options discussed. The smallest being Prussia taking Austrian Silesia, another version where the Prussians take Austrian Silesia and German speaking northwest Bohemia (basically the Sudetenland) and another where Prussia takes all the Bohemian crown lands.

Would these areas simply be added to Prussia or exist as a separate state within the North German Confederation and then German Empire? All German states were monarchical, so who would the Prince or King of Bohemia logically be?

If the annexed territory all goes to Prussia, that kind of surrounds Saxony on several sides - might Bohemian annexation be coupled with annexation of all Saxony in toto?

That last is certainly possible, but not inevitable. Prussia might settle for the part of Lusatia that was left to Saxony in 1815. That would lengthen the common border between Bohemia nd the rest of Prussia.

In general, this would probably be good news for the North German states which were annexed by Prussia OTL. Iirc, King Wilhelm did this only when Bismarck denied him any Austrian territory, and TTL they might well survive, though no doubt with various corners snipped off to link S-H and the RPs with the rest of Prussia.

They might just keep it in personal union, since that was how it was held under Austria.

It wasn't in personal union with Austria, but an integral part of the Empire (as was even Hungary until 1867). Czech nationalists wanted a separate kingdom on the Hungarian model, but never got it.
.

 

[The Avenger]

Czech nationalists wanted a separate kingdom on the Hungarian model, but never got it.

Consisting only of Czechia or consisting of the Slovak lands as well?

Also, please keep in mind that Germany could try flooding Bohemia with German settlers in this TL. I don't know how successful it will be, but Bohemia was more industrialized than Posen and thus could perhaps experience greater Germanization. Ofc, it's worth keeping in mind that Bohemia (Czechia) was already about 30% German if one includes the Sudetenland. Going from 30% German to 50+% German shouldn't be completely impossible.

 

[Nivek]

Consisting only of Czechia or consisting of the Slovak lands as well?

Only the Kingdom of Bohemia itself.

Might have been integrated prussia proper as Wilhelm I wanted to be his price over hasburgs(the hasburg got their power thanks to be the kings of bohemia)

 

[The Avenger]

Only the Kingdom of Bohemia itself.

Might have been integrated prussia proper as Wilhelm I wanted to be his price over hasburgs(the hasburg got their power thanks to be the kings of bohemia)

Do you mean price or prize?

 

[Nivek]

Do you mean price or prize?

Prize, that is why you don't write on a cellphone(with main language setting is spanish), but yeah Wilhelm I wanted Bohemia for those reason and bismarck have to fight to try get a more 'honorable' peace

 

[Mikestone8]

Also, please keep in mind that Germany could try flooding Bohemia with German settlers in this TL. I don't know how successful it will be, but Bohemia was more industrialized than Posen and thus could perhaps experience greater Germanization. Ofc, it's worth keeping in mind that Bohemia (Czechia) was already about 30% German if one includes the Sudetenland. Going from 30% German to 50+% German shouldn't be completely impossible.

They never had much success doinng this in the Polish provinces of Prussia.

 

[The Avenger]

They never had much success doinng this in the Polish provinces of Prussia.

I mentioned Posen here (in the exact post that you just quoted here) and talked about how Bohemia was more industrialized than Posen and thus how it's possible that this fact could allow Germanization in Bohemia to have greater success than Germanization had in Posen. I don't think that it's an unreasonable hypothesis, though obviously I have no idea whether it would have been the correct one.

Also, please keep in mind that Prussia would only need to increase Bohemia's German percentage by 20%--from 30% to 50%. After all, the overwhelmingly German Sudetenland was a part of Bohemia.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Second half of 19th century is too late to flood Slavic lands with German settlers. IOTL Ostflucht affected not only rural Posen but industrialised Upper Silesia too. More likely outcome is Sudeten Germans migrating to Rhineland that opposite.

 

[Gloss]

Second half of 19th century is too late to flood Slavic lands with German settlers. IOTL Ostflucht affected not only rural Posen but industrialised Upper Silesia too. More likely outcome is Sudeten Germans migrating to Rhineland that opposite.

Bohemia was far more industrialized, I think some of the people migrating West would go South instead. Plus people from example didn't emigrate from Saxony, so I see no reason why they would emigrated from the Sudetes.

 

[Nephi]

If they took all of Bohemia dividing the Czech crownlands politically possibly forever.

Imagine an alternate German Empire one this time based out of the first city to be the capital of a German Empire. Prage once was the capital of the first reich is now capital city of the second.

The Czech language and its history is suppressed they're painted as a Germanic peoples.

Prag may be a German city and Czech nationalism takes a hit, but not Moravian nationalism.

Here the smaller rump Czech states basis forms Brno becomes the center of Moravian culture and seeks unity with their Slovak brothers. Which here an even more similar language forms on the Moravian side.

Successfully too they eventually form a third autonomous state within AH, that comes to include Slovakian lands.

Hungary is in turn compensated with the Bosnia half of Bosnia- Herzegovina, the latter of which is ceeded to the Serbs along with a small strip of land giving them coastal access, so cooler heads prevail there, although in exchange the Serbs did make some concessions that pissed of Russia.

Storm clouds brew in the horizon.

 

[Mikestone8]

I mentioned Posen here (in the exact post that you just quoted here) and talked about how Bohemia was more industrialized than Posen and thus how it's possible that this fact could allow Germanization in Bohemia to have greater success than Germanization had in Posen. I don't think that it's an unreasonable hypothesis, though obviously I have no idea whether it would have been the correct one.

Also, please keep in mind that Prussia would only need to increase Bohemia's German percentage by 20%--from 30% to 50%. After all, the overwhelmingly German Sudetenland was a part of Bohemia.

Whoops! Missed that.

If the Prussians are thinking along those lines, they might be well advised to take Austrian Silesia and northern Moravia as well as Bohemia. Iirc those areas had German majorities and were ceded at Munich a century later. If added to a Prussian province of Bohemia, they would increase the German share of its population, esp if a significant number of Czechs drifted across the new border back into Austrian territory.

 

[The Avenger]

Whoops! Missed that.

If the Prussians are thinking along those lines, they might be well advised to take Austrian Silesia and northern Moravia as well as Bohemia. Iirc those areas had German majorities and were ceded at Munich a century later. If added to a Prussian province of Bohemia, they would increase the German share of its population, esp if a significant number of Czechs drifted across the new border back into Austrian territory.

Makes sense. Just how populous were these areas, though?

 

[JackLumber]

They never had much success doinng this in the Polish provinces of Prussia.

That's not even entirely true, they had sizeable German minorities.

 

[Mikestone8]

Makes sense. Just how populous were these areas, though?

According to McEvedy (Penguin Atlas of Recent History), in1871 Bohemia/Moravia had a combined population of 7.75 million. He doesn't give separate figures for the provinces, but according to Wiki, Bohemia's population today is a bit over double that of Moravia/Silesia. Assuming that the proportions (as distinct from absolute numbers) weren't hugely different in the 19C, that would point to around 2.5 million for the latter. So the area I suggested would probably be around a million - though of course not all of these would be German.

That's not even entirely true, they had sizeable German minorities.

True, but they mostly weren't new arrivals, but had been there since the Middle Ages.

As I understand it, in the early 1900s the German government made strenuous efforts to acquire land from Poles and settle more Germans on it. However, this made little progress as they actually got more offers from Germans (fed up with their dreary life on eastern farms, and eager to sell out and get better jobs in the towns) than from Poles. They were seeking lebensraum for people who mostly didn't want to "leben" in it.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

That's not even entirely true, they had sizeable German minorities.

Peak of German settlement in Posen was between 1815 and 1850 (Germans were majority of population of the city of Poznań/Posen during 1840/50s), then proportion of Germans started to decline despite German efforts to encourage new settlers to arrive. 1866 is too late to start massive colonisation of Bohemia-there would be need to find enough settlers willing to move there, not even mentioning that Bohemia (especially central part, with clear Czech majority) was already densely populated.

 

[Gloss]

Peak of German settlement in Posen was between 1815 and 1850 (Germans were majority of population of the city of Poznań/Posen during 1840/50s), then proportion of Germans started to decline despite German efforts to encourage new settlers to arrive. 1866 is too late to start massive colonisation of Bohemia-there would be need to find enough settlers willing to move there, not even mentioning that Bohemia (especially central part, with clear Czech majority) was already densely populated.

More than settlement it would be assimilation, the problem in Posen is that assimilation had a religious barrier to it, while in Upper Silesia there wasn't, I imagine that in Bohemia the religious aspect would play a smaller role and if urban city become dominated by Germans or German speaking peolpe, it would end up with a majority German Czechia in maybe the mid 20th century.

According to McEvedy (Penguin Atlas of Recent History), in1871 Bohemia/Moravia had a combined population of 7.75 million. He doesn't give separate figures for the provinces, but according to Wiki, Bohemia's population today is a bit over double that of Moravia/Silesia. Assuming that the proportions (as distinct from absolute numbers) weren't hugely different in the 19C, that would point to around 2.5 million for the latter. So the area I suggested would probably be around a million - though of course not all of these would be German.




True, but they mostly weren't new arrivals, but had been there since the Middle Ages.

As I understand it, in the early 1900s the German government made strenuous efforts to acquire land from Poles and settle more Germans on it. However, this made little progress as they actually got more offers from Germans (fed up with their dreary life on eastern farms, and eager to sell out and get better jobs in the towns) than from Poles. They were seeking lebensraum for people who mostly didn't want to "leben" in it.

German settlement in Posen wasn't medieval, more pre-industrial(early 17th to early 19th century).

The main problem with the Prussian plans wasn't that they couldn't get enough people there, it's that they believed they could simply make the Poles go away, which would be what is required to make the region majority German as you really can't find place for that many farmers without removing others.

The re-emigration of the settlers was a problem as well, but not that big, in Upper Silesia the trend was that Germans were going to become the majority through assimilation, while in Posen such assimilation was not existent.