If FDR absolutely wanted, could he have killed or substantially diminished segregation?

[FillyofDelphi]

I disagree a bit with what most are posting here, since I think he had a post-Pearl Harbor opportunity to use the war as an excuse to "temporarily" suspend segregation as a necessary step in the war effort, particularly if he played it off against the prevailing sexism of the day and said the alternative was to make women work in factories. This sort of reduces opposition to the level of "if you support segregation now, you're helping the Japs and Nazis and making women do dangerous factory work." The impetus for this would have been to keep skilled and experienced white factory workers at home rather than in the service, with black soldiers taking their place in an integrated Armed Forces and, to a lesser extent, in factories doing defense work.

Now, having said this, that's in hindsight and not in the pressure of the day circa 1942, where it would have been seen as a risky move that threatened domestic unity and thus the war effort itself if the resistance were too great.

Again, how does he answer the question "Why not just make segregated All-Black units with white officers? Then we'll avoid intera-unit tensions and be able to better tailor conditions for the different racial needs ect.?"

Desegrigation is not the only alternative to banning. There's the whole "separate but 'equal' " field one must contend with

 

[sloreck]

All black units with white officers, and a few black ones, was what the Army had. The Navy, during WWII did have a few all black small ships and black officers but very very limited.

 

[marathag]

In the 1930s the power/use of the "executive order" was not what it is today and it would have been seen as dictatorial.

Like forcing people to turn in their Gold Coin and Bullion?

 

[SsgtC]

All black units with white officers, and a few black ones, was what the Army had. The Navy, during WWII did have a few all black small ships and black officers but very very limited.

The Navy was actually more integrated than the other services. All but the smallest ships had at least some black crew members (granted, they were all Stewards or Cooks, but they were there, serving alongside whites).

 

[Pesterfield]

I think the U.S. would need less racist enemies, willing to use segregation as propaganda fodder.

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

I think the U.S. would need less racist enemies, willing to use segregation as propaganda fodder.

That means probably the USSR joining the Axis, which means no hate-boner for communism and Slavs on Hitler’s part and no invasion of Russia. Meaning a different Hitler, one who doesn’t make questionable decisions and is more pragmatic.

 

[1940LaSalle]

…all FDR could have done even as secretary would be resign in protest. As assistant, he had even less clout.

Punch line: Wilson's Secretary of the Navy was a North Carolina-based newspaper publisher, Josephus Daniels. Daniels was completely unsuited for the position in the first place--and even if he weren't he would have gone along blithely with Wilson's segregation moves, given his background: in fact, he supported legislation that effectively disenfranchised blacks, barred them from jury duty, subjected them to legal discrimination, and a host of other pleasantries. FDR had the power to do squat as the Assistant Secretary to counter either Wilson or Daniels--or both.

 

[SsgtC]

Punch line: Wilson's Secretary of the Navy was a North Carolina-based newspaper publisher, Josephus Daniels. Daniels was completely unsuited for the position in the first place--and even if he weren't he would have gone along blithely with Wilson's segregation moves, given his background: in fact, he supported legislation that effectively disenfranchised blacks, barred them from jury duty, subjected them to legal discrimination, and a host of other pleasantries. FDR had the power to do squat as the Assistant Secretary to counter either Wilson or Daniels--or both.

Don't get me started on Wilson or Daniels. I can't stand either one of them. Wilson was a racist son of a bitch (even by the standards of his day) and Daniels was one of if not the most incompetent SECNAV we've ever had. He personally delayed equipping the Navy's battleships with the 16" gun until the Colorado class. Despite the Navy wanting them (and the gun being ready) as early as the New Mexico class of 1915

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Punch line: Wilson's Secretary of the Navy was a North Carolina-based newspaper publisher, Josephus Daniels. Daniels was completely unsuited for the position in the first place--and even if he weren't he would have gone along blithely with Wilson's segregation moves, given his background: in fact, he supported legislation that effectively disenfranchised blacks, barred them from jury duty, subjected them to legal discrimination, and a host of other pleasantries. FDR had the power to do squat as the Assistant Secretary to counter either Wilson or Daniels--or both.

He had the power to quit.

 

[SsgtC]

He had the power to quit.

Which is no power at all.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Which is no power at all.

He’s a Roosevelt, quitting the democrats on a matter of principle, original Wilson man.

Which goes to the point that he did not give a damn about desegregation except as it helped another agenda

 

[SsgtC]

He’s a Roosevelt, quitting the democrats on a matter of principle, original Wilson man.

Which goes to the point that he did not give a damn about desegregation except as it helped another agenda

Ok, you're talking about actually switching parties? That's a LOT different than just resigning as Assistant Secretary of the Navy.

 

[woweed]

i"d say the best time to start would be around 1943. The war's in full swing. Probably start with Integrating the Army, then move from there.

 

[sloreck]

Perhaps the summer or fall of 1944 would be better. The Army was having a manpower problem and was doing things like turning AA units in to infantry replacements. There was also the specter of manpower needs for the projected invasion of Japan. One of the issues that US forces had with the black units (segregated) that were in the ETO was that the Europeans (British, French, Belgians, etc) did not go along with US racial attitudes and seeing black servicemen "mixing" with white women caused some serious incidents and problems. Sending more black troops/integrated units to the Pacific could eliminate to a large extent the "mixing" issue. At least in Australia the locals at that time would be just as upset at black man and white women together even if the blacks were Americans and not Aborigones. Of course since the only women Black troops were likely to encounter in the PTO would most likely be pacific Islanders of one sort or another or Asians, this is less troubling.

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

i"d say the best time to start would be around 1943. The war's in full swing. Probably start with Integrating the Army, then move from there.

If he wants to integrate the federal government or start the dominoes on integration, the key is need. If segregated units are too much of a hassle or there’s a much greater need for integration, FDR would have made it happen, Dixiecrats be damned. This probably means a need for more officers and a pool of talented black NCOs. This probably also means a needfor organizing people based on something other than race, like if there are a fuckton of talented black codebreakers and no feasible way to segregate them. Start with the most pressing dominoes. The rest will fall.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

I have always felt that the horrors of the Nazis racial policies made people realized that a lot of the same ideas was being used to discriminate against blacks. That realization made it easier for the presidents after FDR to take the steps that they took.

The realization was not as much as one would have hoped. Anti-Semitism was still rampant even after the war, as was obviously the other racisms.

 

[sloreck]

What the Emperor N has stated is quite right. The effect of the horrors of the Nazi crimes was that "open" antisemitism with nastiness became less socially acceptable and either only in private or among the most open racists. Restrictions in housing, jobs, college admissions and so forth were unchanged from prewar, those did not really go away until after the civil rights legislation of the 60s. Anti-black racism in the south was little affected by revelations about the Nazis, and fighting the war with Japan did little for the Japanese-Americans and Chinese (and Koreans) tended to get lumped in.

 

[jerseyguy]

I'm surprised this topic hasn't come up before/more often. The mid 20th century is a pivotal era for lots of timelines on here, a twentieth century TL is almost expected to mention civil rights, even if its the only mention of US domestic policy.

The analysis here in this threads so far should also be applicable to understanding the horse-trading and backroom deals that produce other programs and policies.

 

[sciscisciortino]

If he didn't die in 1945, he could have done what Truman did, before and beyond that, no. The social base for desegregation simply doesn't exist beforehand.

 

[marathag]

If he didn't die in 1945, he could have done what Truman did, before and beyond that, no. The social base for desegregation simply doesn't exist beforehand.

Disagree. Anytime in 1942 when the War was going not so well.