How would you have dealt with Germany post WW1?

[FBKampfer]

Give A-L to Germany in internationally recognized treaty, lay war guilt at the foot of the Serbian, the Russian Empire (now defunct, Soviet Union is found blameless), and France.

Germany pays indemnity to Belgium, France pays indemnity to AH in lieu of her ally the Russian Empire, GB pays indemnity to Germany for the blockade.

Italy loses some minor territory to AH for the back stab, and funds them a new Dreadnought.

Germany keeps her fleets, everyone is bound by LNT, save for the British getting a mere 25% tonnage superiority.


Basically treat everyone as adults, but slap any French representative demanding revenge, and tell them not to fuck up and help start wars next time.

 

[Worffan101]

Two options: Break them up, which is only going to cause a massive nationalist surge later down the line and lead to WW2, or say "give colonies, referendum in Alsace-Lorraine after 20 years of UN administration, Germany doesn't get any control over former Russian possessions that now get to be their own states, and some token war reparations".

In the latter case they'll just join up with the Austria part of AH, which, fine, no big deal at this point, and then be mildly grouchy for a while.

At which point I will drink my cyanide so that I die before the 200 Frenchmen shoot me.

 

[Remitonov]

Two options: Break them up, which is only going to cause a massive nationalist surge later down the line and lead to WW2, or say "give colonies, referendum in Alsace-Lorraine after 20 years of UN administration, Germany doesn't get any control over former Russian possessions that now get to be their own states, and some token war reparations".

In the latter case they'll just join up with the Austria part of AH, which, fine, no big deal at this point, and then be mildly grouchy for a while.

At which point I will drink my cyanide so that I die before the 200 Frenchmen shoot me.

Well, there's always the option taken in WWII - drown them in US reconstruction money and get them back on their feet as a friend rather than an enemy because fuck the French. Of course, this would require radically different attitudes, particularly an anti-isolationist US public and a healthy amount of reason surviving the war in the Entente's leadership not to be vindictive asshats because fuck the French.

Seriously, fuck the French. They just want their Confederation of the Rhine back. /jk

 

[Worffan101]

Well, there's always the option taken in WWII - drown them in US reconstruction money and get them back on their feet as a friend rather than an enemy because fuck the French. Of course, this would require radically different attitudes, particularly an anti-isolationist US public and a healthy amount of reason surviving the war in the Entente's leadership not to be vindictive asshats because fuck the French.

Seriously, fuck the French. They just want their Confederation of the Rhine back. /jk

I mean, 1918 America might've had trouble Marshal Planning Europe. A bit of it, anyway.

but yes fuck the French. Their poor, vindictive decisions and Wilson being a racist fuckhead led to SO much trouble...

 

[Remitonov]

I mean, 1918 America might've had trouble Marshal Planning Europe. A bit of it, anyway.

but yes fuck the French. Their poor, vindictive decisions and Wilson being a racist fuckhead led to SO much trouble...

In all seriousness though, I don't think any option would have worked well. Had they went for full on breaking Germany, it'll only generate resentment rapidly, resentment that the Entente had no will nor resources to stamp out, and can easily be exploited by both German nationalists and the Soviets. Going the other way, a lot of people in the Entente, never mind the French, would have cried foul, having lost an entire generation only to give Germany the proverbial slap in the wrist. The option they ultimately took, the Treaty of Versailles, laid somewhere in the middle, and ironically provided the worst of both worlds. Not only did it churn immense resentment in Germany over reparations and the occupation of the Ruhr, etc. but the provisions of the treaty also allowed the Germans to find creative ways to skirt around the restrictions imposed, with the Entente unable or even unwilling to enforce it.

Ultimately, whatever shape the treaty ultimately takes, you need the US involved in maintaining it. Without the US, there's literally little way Britain and France could hold the fort.

 

[Garetor]

Give A-L to Germany in internationally recognized treaty, lay war guilt at the foot of the Serbian, the Russian Empire (now defunct, Soviet Union is found blameless), and France.

Germany pays indemnity to Belgium, France pays indemnity to AH in lieu of her ally the Russian Empire, GB pays indemnity to Germany for the blockade.

Italy loses some minor territory to AH for the back stab, and funds them a new Dreadnought.

Germany keeps her fleets, everyone is bound by LNT, save for the British getting a mere 25% tonnage superiority.


Basically treat everyone as adults, but slap any French representative demanding revenge, and tell them not to fuck up and help start wars next time.

Why not just declare war on France? That would be faster and get you the same result.

 

[Karelian]

- Occupy the German ports, Berlin and Ruhr with joint Entente forces to show the German public that they've truly been beaten. Maintain these garrisons as guarantees of status quo for a long time.
- Limit German territorial losses to A-L, cede Gdingen to Poland and create a LoN railway guard detachment to supervise the railroad connecting Poland to the coast.
- Agree to deal only with a German government that creates a constitution that closely matches the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, accepted by a popular referendum.
- Name the defunct A-H and Russian Empires for the primary culprits for starting the war.
- Push forward OTL Locarno-type treaties to internationally guarantee the new borders of Europe. Include Germany to this treaty, at gunpoint if necessary, and make this new general treaty an unviolable cornerstone of the new status quo in Europe.
- Create an OTL-Dawes Plan-type system where German war reparations are kept in international supervision and organized so that the German government cannot fudge the numbers, extending the time required to pay back the entire sum as necessary.
- Create a commission of general European disarmament, maintain strict surveillance of German military projects.
- Offer Germany a seat in the LoN after they've met the disarmament demands and agreed on their new borders, and offer to remove the garrison of Berlin once they do. The occupation of ports, Ruhr and Rhineland shall continue for 50 years.
- Support Polish aspirations elsewhere to avoid antagonizing them, and support them as a counterbalance to Germany.

So a stern and clear treaty, enforced and kept in order with standing military garrisons, combined with more lenient economic policy and a constitution that decentralizes Germany internally without breaking the state apart. This gives room for Stresemann-type figures, prevents a single dictator from taking over, and in a worst case scenario allows the Entente to limit any German faction emerging from a potential Civil War to a position where they are powerless to start a new war even if they wanted to. The key is to return to economic normalcy as quickly as possible, followed by a system where the German public realizes that the Entente won, but did not destroy Germany entirely even when they had the power to do so.

France gets:
- A-L
- Colonies
- Reparations
- Security through the occupation of Ruhr and Rhineland
- Guarantees for her new borders

Britain gets:
- Reparations
- Colonies
- Removal of German naval threat

US gets:
- A system that stabilizes the European mess
- Financial clout in the form of the control of WW1 debts of Germany (with the hopes that others pay up as well).

Germany gets:
- A new democratic constitution
- Limited territorial losses
- A clear and undisputed defeat without naming them the single culprit of the war

 

[Ian_W]

It seems like half the posters on this thread think Imperial Germany won the war in 1918.

 

[Remitonov]

It seems like half the posters on this thread think Imperial Germany won the war in 1918.

Given the clusterfuck we're still living in thanks to what the Entente created, I could hardly blame them for wishing the Central Powers won. The thing is, thou, it would probably be no less awful if they had. Just different winners and losers.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Germany is permanently restricted from having armed forces. Germany's national defense will be provided by the "Peace Legion", an internationally recruited volunteer force managed by the major Allied powers (the US, Britain, France, maybe Italy and Japan), and backed up by their navies and air forces. Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey will be under the same restriction. Other nations may sign up for Peace Legion protection on the same basis.

A country under Peace Legion protection pays some modest tax to cover expenses of forces there. This assessment could be offset by the service of volunteers from that country, i.e. by supplyng manpower.

 

[Augenis]

 

[XLII]

It seems like half the posters on this thread think Imperial Germany won the war in 1918.

And it seems like half of this thread thinks the Entente posesses limitless reserves of treasure and political will.

More seriously though: As has been argued in plenty of threads, going the harsher route is without a pre-war POD utterly unlikely (I do dislike the ASB label) - so the only sensible thing would have been for the USA to muscle through the fairer variant. From my reading of period media, one of the main mistakes was that a) the new republican government got the blame, thereby weakening its internal standing (thats the short of it) and making collapse likely and b) violating precedent by not observing the diplomatic protocol like it was done in the post-napoleon conference in Vienna.

 

[kalamona]

It seems like half the posters on this thread think Imperial Germany won the war in 1918.

There were no winners of that war. Only losers, now the degree and the time of the loss varies, but still.

Oh, and deciding not to play would not guarantee a win.

 

[TDM]

Honestly keep it pretty much as is, there's a lot of myth about how unfair ToV was, but in actual fact it was pretty standard to seek reparations and territory (and base you troops on their land while it was happening).

Prussia forced reparations on France in 1871, in the Treaty of Frankfurt. Those reparations were calculated on the same basis as the reparations Napoleon had set on Prussia in 1807 (Bismark, eh), it also involved the Prussian army standing around paris while it happened

"It was generally assumed at the time that the indemnity would cripple France for thirty or fifty years"

The prussian attitude at the time, The Prussian Finance Minister Otto von Camphausen:

The German nation had after all suffered so many additional losses in blood and material goods which are beyond all accounting that it is entirely justified to assess the price of the war generously and in addition to the estimated sum to demand an appropriate surcharge for the incalculable damages.[2]

and Bismark himself:

"France being the richest country in Europe, nothing could keep her quiet but effectually to empty her pockets".[3]

Speaking of which the Treaty of Paris in 1815 levied plenty of reparations against France, including loss of territory, and paying for their neighbour's fortifications and billeting of their troops on French territory. But you know it look a long time, resources and blood to beat napoleon (huh sounds a bit familiar that)

So in type and in scale ToV is actually about right (in fact given those figure by today's standards the cash reparation in ToV compared to ToF 1871 are quite low especially when you compare the damages in each war

Honestly The ToV was cruel and unusual is as much a myth as the stabbed in the back myth. Especially as Germany managed to avoid getting counter invaded and have say Berlin besieged etc, etc. Ironic give the lack of this happening fueled the stabbed in the back myth.


So Ok what would I do differently, for me the it's the depression that cause the issues and IMO gives power to the myths. So if I'm going to use hindsight I'm going to concentrate there. Hower that involves forseeing the hit and changing international financial systems and attitudes at the time before it hits!


Breaking up Germany is a bit of a non starter. Just as Bismark realised he needed the German states to want to unify in order to get them to. The corollary is the only way to get them to spilt (and stay split) is for them to want to, and why would they? So breaking up Germany would involve permanent garrisoning and constant low level fighting.

Give A-L to Germany in internationally recognized treaty, lay war guilt at the foot of the Serbian, the Russian Empire (now defunct, Soviet Union is found blameless), and France.

Germany pays indemnity to Belgium, France pays indemnity to AH in lieu of her ally the Russian Empire, GB pays indemnity to Germany for the blockade.

Italy loses some minor territory to AH for the back stab, and funds them a new Dreadnought.

Germany keeps her fleets, everyone is bound by LNT, save for the British getting a mere 25% tonnage superiority.


Basically treat everyone as adults, but slap any French representative demanding revenge, and tell them not to fuck up and help start wars next time.

So treat everyone as adults

Except France who had 20% of it terrority trashed having been invaded, lost over a million men, was our ally and we fought with shoulder to shoulder for 4 years?

Or GB pays who pays reparations to Germany over blockade, but we're fine with unrestricted sub warfare!? Oh and you going to proportionally reduce the RN!

Or italy again an ally we fought with for 3 years, they're going to be net losers of territory

War guilt goes to France and Russia but not Germany who gave A-H a blank cheque, and invaded Belgium and France. Or A-H who kicked this off clearly looking for war with Serbia?

Oh and AL goes to the loser in perpetuity.

Yeah this is not only never going to happen but would be grossly unfair to the entente even forgetting they won and Germany sued for peace.

But yes given you started with the bit in bold, I suggest we have very different ideas about all this!

 

[TDM]

There were no winners of that war. Only losers, now the degree and the time of the loss varies, but still.

Oh, and deciding not to play would not guarantee a win.

True enough but I think Ian_W is referring to the idea that Germany having sued for peace in 1918 and was pretty clearly about to lose and be counter invaded should gain territory (A-L), France and Italy should lose it. Oh and stuff like GB should pay reparations for the their blockade, but apparently German unrestricted Sub warfare aimed at starving Britain out of the war is fine.

 

[Tanc49]

This question is never going to have an answer, because it calls back to very different feelings: those who think that Germany 1939 was a failure directly coming from Versailles and that a Germany treated better would not have been as bad, and those who think only a Germany permanently humbled would have led to lasting peace.

I am myself of the second persuasion. The rise of Nazism and WWII was not the consequence of Versailles. That is not true and that is a myth.
The political climate of the 20's was toxic of course, but that was not entirely specific to Germany. After 1925, there was a massive infusion of cash from the US, which led to solid growth, with Germany reaching back its per capita GDP from before WWI on the eve of 1929.

http://www.edmundconway.com/2015/02/the-uk-germany-and-france-gdp-over-history/

Of course, that's when things went bad. Since Germany's economy was internationally integrated, it got hit really bad by the 1929 crisis and the capital flight. That's what led to Nazism. Not Versailles. Versailles was a pretext.

That means a more lenient Versailles might not have helped, and would have sent a wrong message. The message, in my opinion, is "you play, you lose, you pay". France was devastated by the war, its core industrial region now unhabitable ruins, littered with explosives and gas shells.
Germany needed to be broken up, as it was after WWII.

But that's a question that's extremely subjective and will never be resolved.

 

[Xgentis]

Any lenient treaty isn't going to fly, not after so much blood was spilled. That is asking for revolutions at home or your army might depose you for it.

 

[James Ricker]

Germany loses Alsace and Lorraine but aquires the sudetenland and Austria has a referendum on whether or not to join Germany. I would demilitarize the Rhine no occupation.
Poland , hell yeah great buffer state.
I would also get Representatives of all European powers together to have a conference on trade. Europe just knocked itself silly in a major war, my primary goal would be get the economies going again If only and self-interest so you can pay off war loans and not have to deal with potential communist uprisings.

 

[DracoLazarus]

- Alsace-Lorraine, Poznania, and the colonies taken from Germany : there is no question about that.
- War guilt : Its impact was clearly exagerated, it's only because Germany was the last one of its allies standing that it felt all the blame was laid on it.
- Reparations : Impose a yearly rate of reparation payments as a proportion of the GDP per capita similar to the one France got in the Franco-Prussian one, but over 20 years.
- Army limitations : OTL limitations on equipment (not army size) are good. Allow them 250k + 50k every year the reparations are paid.
With regards to Poland, establishing a Poland-Lithuania might be a better idea.
Alternatively, if Poland needs a coast, partition East Prussia as well between Lithuania and Poland.
Spinning off Bavaria is still feasible, but no other pre-Imperial Germany country, sadly.

 

[BlondieBC]

Two options: Break them up, which is only going to cause a massive nationalist surge later down the line and lead to WW2, or say "give colonies, referendum in Alsace-Lorraine after 20 years of UN administration, Germany doesn't get any control over former Russian possessions that now get to be their own states, and some token war reparations".

In the latter case they'll just join up with the Austria part of AH, which, fine, no big deal at this point, and then be mildly grouchy for a while.

At which point I will drink my cyanide so that I die before the 200 Frenchmen shoot me.

There is actually another choice with A-L even though I did not use it in my first post. Buffer states are great at slowing down the mobilization craze. So make A-L a new nation. Have everyone guarantee the borders of Belgium, A-L, Switzerland, and Poland. And all these nations need large, defensive minded armies. aka lots of infantry and fortresses.

A-L is one of those areas that is neither really German nor French.