How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

[BlairWitch749]

Geon,

I have one other question, where are Heinz Guderian and Albert Speer during all of this... they of course were concerned with their own safety as priority 1 but they did want germany to survive

I can't imagine Guderian going along with the release of WMD's let alone Speer diverting production to produce more wmd stocks at that point of the war; they did undermind Hitler's Nero orders in OTL which leads me to think they would not go along quietly with the stuff and would either object so much as to need to be shot (removing them being too dangerous for Hitler) or Guderian would send a panther company to "parade" past the chancellory and shoot the placeup

 

[FickleCrossroad]

I can't imagine Guderian going along with the release of WMD's let alone Speer diverting production to produce more wmd stocks at that point of the war; they did undermind Hitler's Nero orders in OTL which leads me to think they would not go along quietly with the stuff and would either object so much as to need to be shot (removing them being too dangerous for Hitler) or Guderian would send a panther company to "parade" past the chancellory and shoot the placeup

That would be awesome, though.

Shame the SS would push a Guderian coup off the rails.

 

[BlairWitch749]

That would be awesome, though.

Shame the SS would push a Guderian coup off the rails.

considering Guderian has command of the armored forces training near berlin, i don't think so; the SS and SD for all their numbers were still little more than school yard bullies with shiny uniforms; who would not be a match for armored infantry supported by tanks

and the waffen ss was subordinated to the army so they wouldn't intervene either (especially as deitrich, hausser, and steiner were drinking buddies with guderian)

 

[FickleCrossroad]

considering Guderian has command of the armored forces training near berlin, i don't think so; the SS and SD for all their numbers were still little more than school yard bullies with shiny uniforms; who would not be a match for armored infantry supported by tanks

and the waffen ss was subordinated to the army so they wouldn't intervene either (especially as deitrich, hausser, and steiner were drinking buddies with guderian)

I was thinking more along the lines of the SS managing to wipe out some plotters, managing to prevent an effective transition, instead of blocking it entirely. At this point, ITTL, Guderian's wet dream will be negotiating something along OTL lines.

No matter what, it can't end well for Germany, but I'm cheering for a Guderian coup regardless.

 

[LeX]

Even more awesome would be Guderian captures Hitler and gets him to the Allies for trial.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

Even more awesome would be Guderian captures Hitler and gets him to the Allies for trial.

This would probably get an OTL-style peace.

Then again, TTL's fitter Goering can't be underestimated when thinking about the endgame.

 

[Sir Chaos]

This would probably get an OTL-style peace.

Then again, TTL's fitter Goering can't be underestimated when thinking about the endgame.

Goering seems to primarily think in terms of saving his own sorry hide.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

Goering seems to primarily think in terms of saving his own sorry hide.

Exactly. The question is, would he try to pursue a postwar government position, if he, Guderian, and Speer are seen as a responsible anti-Hitler transition government? The right conditions, and he may think he can keep not only his life, but part of his lifestyle. Handing over Hitler is significant enough to muddy the waters.

It's all up to Geon, though. I can't wait to see what's yet to come!

 

[MerryPrankster]

A Guderian-Speer-Goering triumvirate trying to topple Hitler to bargain with the Allies?

They're going to be in an even worse position than the Valkyrie crew would have been had they succeeded a few months ago. The Valkyrie plotters were a bunch of (relative) nobodies, anti-Nazis, and had the German general with the cleanest hands (Rommel) possibly on-side.

These guys are in it up to their necks, especially Goering.

 

[GFW]

The allies start killing off every German with Gas and Disease?
Uh, no.

That'd make them bigger monsters than the very people they're fighting.

 

[Michel Van]

The allies start killing off every German with Gas and Disease?
Uh, no.

That'd make them bigger monsters than the very people they're fighting.

not quite !

if Allies let the Jewish NAKAM free hand in there mission, it will get very ugly
there Plan A was poising with cyanide the Water supply of town Munich, Hamburg, Frankfurt am Main, Nuremberg.
while Plan B was poising the SS prisoners.
Nakam goal was to murder 6 million Germans

the Tilhas Tizig Gesheften brigade was out killing Nazis especial SS in Germany, Austria and Italy during 1945-1949

but there even after 1949 some Jewish Commandos operating in Germany
like 1952 Assassination attempt on chancellor Konrad Adenauer

in German TV-documentation about those Jewish Commandos, claimed a former Mosad

We have killed between 1945 and 1955 around 10000 Nazi in Germany and Austria.

they shoot, poising or run over with a car...

 

[katchen]

Speculation on the Greater Nordic Union. (GNU)

if scandinavia nation unite sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, including Island.
There Military need weapon and Sweden Saab and Volvo get much bigger player as OTL.
Especial Saab aircraft like Saab 29 Tunnan, 32 Lansen, 35 Draken and 37 Viggen build for all GNU member !

will the Greater Nordic Union go for scandinavia build Atomic bomb ?
in that case they need advance V2 rockets and Supersonic Bomber Saab 36

on Economic, will GNU also lower there Border for import export for there members and form monetary union ?

My proposal for Logo of GNU, based on En svensk tiger

You need a red stripe in there for Denmark. And a midnight blue stripe for Finland.

 

[Archibald]

they were also given horrendous rations and allowed disease to run rampent in french prison camps in 1945-46

There was hardly enough food for anybody in France until 1949 and Germans were hardly a priority, for obvious reasons. That, and the treatment of French POWs in stalags during WWII, and Dora - the V-2 production line also know as "the grave of French POWs", where 20 000 people died. Oradour did not helped either.
All this was a knee-jerk reaction that didn't lasted very long. From 1949 or so French and Germans were once again best friends in the world...

 

[Geon]

Operation Vegetarian

Here is an update which deals with what many of you have mentioned, including the rationale behind said decision.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: January 15, 1945
Location: London
Time: 11:00 a.m. [London time]

In his residence Prime Minister Winston Churchill was examining once again a folder for an operation that had been planned as far back as 1942. The operation had been shelved as being “too inhuman,” back then, but now given the abandon with which the Axis was using both chemical and biological weapons there was pressure from many of his advisors to consider using it again.

Operation Vegetarian was a plan to drop anthrax laced linseed cakes throughout the German countryside. Cattle would feed on the cakes and contract anthrax; in turn humans would catch the disease from infected meat. The whole operation had been tested on Gruinard Island. The tests had proved successful, far too successful. The island had been contaminated and thus far all attempts at decontamination had proved unsuccessful. If the techniques used for Operation Vegetarian were implemented it was likely to mean the deaths of millions of German citizens and the rendering useless of German agricultural lands for years to come.

The use of chemical weapons against German cities was simply a response to the German use of chemical weapons against the United States and against British troops during the Battle for Belgium. This however, would likely mean massive death among the German people for generations to come. Large sections of Germany might have to be simply evacuated and the displaced German people would have to be put somewhere. With no agricultural or industrial base Germany as a nation would completely collapse. In such a case it was possible the Soviets would eventually be able to claim all of Germany.

Stalin’s goals were becoming disturbingly clear to Churchill. Now that the survival of the U.S.S.R. was no longer at stake he hoped to gain political control of the nations bordering the Soviet Union as a future buffer. A shattered Germany would be in a perfect position for the Soviet dictator to sweep up the remains. Then the West would be dealing with a hostile surviving German population on their front doorstep who would be told how it was the West after all who had used biological warfare and nearly wiped out the German people. It would be a variation of the “stab-in-the-back,” mythology that had helped Hitler to come to power in the 30’s, and Churchill had not a doubt in his mind that the German people, hungry and humiliated would buy it.

Churchill closed the folder and made his decision. As tempting as it was to consider the use of Vegetarian especially after the attacks on the U.S. and in Belgium, doing so would mean a devastated Germany even more so then what was being done to it know. The Allies were in this war to bring an end to German militarism, not to commit genocide. No. Operation Vegetarian was indeed too horrific to use, and would not be used if he had a say in the matter.

 

[Andras]

Interesting (by that I mean horrifying) timeline.

As for atomic devices, this is a good timeline of the Manhattan Project
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq10.html#nfaq10.6

It'll be an interesting decision as to rework LittleBoy into implosion devices. Four implosion style devices could be built from the uranium used in the single LittleBoy, but the success of the implosion method hadn't been proven until Trinity.

July 19, 1945 - Oppenheimer suggest to Groves that the U-235 from Little Boy be reworked into uranium/plutonium composite cores for making more implosion bombs (4 implosion bombs could be made from Little Boy's pit). Groves rejects the idea since it would delay combat use.

Will they decide that the extra 3 devices will be more useful?

The same amount of U235 used in LittleBoy, used in a implosion device, resulted in a 500kt yield.

Here is a good overview of the production of further devices
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html#nfaq8.1.5

Production estimates given to Sec. Stimson in July 1945 projected a second plutonium bomb would be ready by Aug. 24, that 3 bombs should be available in September, and more each month - reaching 7 or more in December. Improvements in bomb design being prepared at the end of the war would have permitted one bomb to be produced for every 5 kg of plutonium or 12 kg of uranium in output. These improvements were apparently taken into account in this estimate. Assuming these bomb improvements were used, the October capacity would have permitted up to 6 bombs a month. Note that with the peak monthly plutonium and HEU production figures (19.4 kg and 69 kg respectively), production of close to 10 bombs a month was possible.

 

[Geon]

Harry Truman and Roosevelt

Speaking of nuclear weapons and Truman!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: January 16, 1945
Location: Washington, D.C. [Walter Reed Medical Center]
Time: 10:00 a.m. [EST]

Harry Truman was sitting beside the bed of President Roosevelt with Eleanor sitting at the foot of the bed. He had just been told that he would be president the day after he was inaugurated as the vice-president. Truman was surprised but not overly so. He had seen this coming since FDR had his stroke several weeks ago. But he had assumed it would be Wallace that would be come president and he would still be Vice-President. But FDR had already decided that Wallace was not going to take over. He had chosen Truman for a reason. Wallace had been allowed to run things with FDR’s blessing as long as he didn’t try to deviate too much from what the President wanted. But FDR was clear he wanted Truman and not Wallace for his successor.

“Eleanor has done a fine job in being my voice to Wallace and the Cabinet Harry. But I cannot run the Presidency from a hospital bed. The nation needs a healthy man like you to lead it into peace. I don’t think I would have made it through a fourth term anyway. I need you to start getting ready to take the reins of real power the day after your inaugurated. And to do that you need to be brought completely into the loop on several matters. I’ve asked the Cabinet, through Eleanor, to give you private briefings to bring you up to date on our situation with the war. In addition you may wish to talk with Eleanor on two important letters that were sent to me and Prime Minister Churchill by the Japanese Emperor.” The way Roosevelt said that, so natural and matter-of-fact put Harry off for a moment until he had run what was just said over in his mind then his eyes grew wide in surprise.

“That’s one of the things you need to be brought up to date on. In addition there is another little project that I have asked Major General Eugene Reybold to brief you on later today in the White House. I think you may find it just as much an eye-opener as what I have just told you.”

 

[Amakan]

I love how this TL is slowly descending into Ango-American Nazi War territory.

I suspect that by the end of the war Berlin will be a disease ridden chemically contaminated radioactive wasteland?

 

[Geon]

And what about Hitler?

And at the Berghof here are Hitler's thoughts on the state of the world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: January 16, 1945
Location: The Berghof
Time: 11:00 p.m. [German time]

The late evening military briefing was coming to an end. In the conference room of his mountain retreat Hitler concluded his discussions with his generals. “I agree gentlemen that East Prussia must be evacuated, but we must give priority to the troops. As harsh as it is the civilians will have to fend for themselves. Again I admit this is harsh but war itself is harsh. We need manpower for the Eastern front and the sooner we can redeploy those troops to the Vistula River the better. As to Norway, right now there is little we can do. Our troops there must hold as best they can. If the situation becomes untenable then we will have to consider an evacuation via the Norwegian North Sea ports. But I will only authorize such if it become clear that the situation is no longer tenable.”

“We must now consider evacuating those towns and cities on the east bank of the Rhine. We can expect the Allies will begin to use their own chemical arsenal when they begin their spring offensive. The populations must be moved further into Germany. These people are vital to keeping our factories and farms running.”

“Finally, I would urge all of you to remain optimistic. We have simply lost a battle in Belgium and not the war. It is now time for us to reverse the strategy of the previous few years. Up until now we have relied upon the mobility of the German army to provide us with our victories. Now we must revert to tactics that will limit the mobility of our enemy and force him to bleed at our rampart walls. We can and will win this gentlemen, but only if we hold fast!”

The meeting ended and Hitler slipped into his study and ordered his aide to secure the door behind him. In the near darkness he considered his own words. His confident words to his generals had been simply that-words. After the Battle of Belgium the writing on the walls was there for all to see. Oh, there might still be some chance the Allies in the West would tire of the bloodshed and offer a reasonable peace but that chance became more and more remote with each day, and Hitler expected no such chance from the Russian hordes in the east. That was a battle where there would be no quarter asked or given once the spring offensive by the Russians started. There was no question now that the war was lost, the question really was how long could the final collapse be prevented.

For Hitler it was becoming more and more evident that the end was inevitable, but if it was inevitable then Hitler fully intended it would be an end worthy of his beloved Wagnerian operas. In old times, it was said, Teutonic warriors often were placed on their funeral pyres with the bodies of their enemies and friends surrounding them. If this last slim chance failed then Hitler resolved that his funeral pyre would be one truly worthy of a Wagnerian opera.

 

[Donald Reaver]

Hitler is still out of touch with reality, there is no way they have the ships and air cover to evacuate any troops from Norway. An of course Norway has no Baltic ports, the Skagarrek to the South of Norway opens straight out to the North Sea.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Have the Nazis even tried to capitalize on the recent battles and the successful repositioning of their armies by offering terms to the West?