How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

[Sir Chaos]

Exactly. The question is, would he try to pursue a postwar government position, if he, Guderian, and Speer are seen as a responsible anti-Hitler transition government? The right conditions, and he may think he can keep not only his life, but part of his lifestyle. Handing over Hitler is significant enough to muddy the waters.

It's all up to Geon, though. I can't wait to see what's yet to come!

I would assume that Goering is too "tainted" with his involvement in the war and the Nazi horrors for him to ever be able to play a major role after the war. The best case I can see for him is that he´ll spend the rest of his life hiding somewhere in South America, with the Mossad spending that same time turning over every stone in South America to find him.

It is quite possible that Speer can salvage himself from the Nazi wreckage. Guderian... unlikely, though I am quite sure he could buy himself out of being executed by turning over Hitler to the Allies. But Goering? No freaking chance at all.

 

[Geon]

Omar Bradley

And now for some thoughts on the situation from Omar Bradley.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: January 17, 1945
Location: Paris [SHAEF HQ]
Time: 10:00 a.m. [Paris time]

General Omar Bradley was pondering a map of the Rhine Valley. Any way he looked at it the spring offensive was going to be as bloody as the Normandy Beach landing had been, particularly Omaha Beach.

The Germans had demolished every bridge on the Rhine River. Not one was left. That meant the Allies would need to bridge the river using pontoon bridges and by using paratroop drops in rear areas to keep German troops off balance. All of this while facing very active German resistance.

The Germans according to intelligence now had many of their SS units guarding the east bank of the Rhine. The German army was one thing but the SS units were for the most part fanatical fighters who fought to the last man. They would be difficult to dislodge. The Germans were trying to “dig in,” as it were and use the time they had to build more permanent defenses. However both the USAAF and the RAF were making that task a difficult one. Armed with both high explosives and mustard gas the Allied air forces were making the attempt to fortify the east bank of the Rhine a continuous nightmare. The Germans however were not making it easy for them either. Some of the German jet fighters that had survived the air battle over Belgium were making life difficult for Allied bombers. Further German artillery was throwing not only explosive shells but shells with sarin gas at any units probing too close to the edge of the Rhine. Bradley had ordered his troops to stay about 5 to 10 miles back from the front so that his men wouldn’t have to wear chemical warfare protection gear all the time.

The situation was slowly improving from what it had been immediately after the Battle for Belgium but it would still be at least two or three months before his generals were ready to launch a full scale offensive. And Bradley had no doubt, that from the Allied perspective this offensive would make Omaha Beach look like a walk in the park!

 

[Archibald]

Won't they run out of sarin gas someday ? And indeed there will be blood. I think Andras has a point here.

July 19, 1945 - Oppenheimer suggest to Groves that the U-235 from Little Boy be reworked into uranium/plutonium composite cores for making more implosion bombs (4 implosion bombs could be made from Little Boy's pit). Groves rejects the idea since it would delay combat use. Will they decide that the extra 3 devices will be more useful?

The same amount of U235 used in LittleBoy, used in a implosion device, resulted in a 500kt yield.

Production estimates given to Sec. Stimson in July 1945 projected a second plutonium bomb would be ready by Aug. 24, that 3 bombs should be available in September, and more each month - reaching 7 or more in December. Improvements in bomb design being prepared at the end of the war would have permitted one bomb to be produced for every 5 kg of plutonium or 12 kg of uranium in output. These improvements were apparently taken into account in this estimate. Assuming these bomb improvements were used, the October capacity would have permitted up to 6 bombs a month. Note that with the peak monthly plutonium and HEU production figures (19.4 kg and 69 kg respectively), production of close to 10 bombs a month was possible.

If the allies get fed up of loosing men and killing fanatical SS, couldn't they start dropping nukes here and there ?
Oh crap, looks like operation grandfall vs nukes - OTL debate with Germany instead of Japan... the Rhine instead of the "home islands"

 

[zoomar]

Three great updates, Geon! Glad to see that the western allies are undertaking reasonable military responses, not planning genocide for genocide's sake in Germany. Glad to see that Truman's way to the presidency is being expedited and smoothed...over the long haul, Wallace would be a disaster. And Hitler....he is starting to sound shockingly reasonable in his assessment of Germany's remaining military options. I wonder what he means by his "Wagnerian bonfire". I can imagine several options, none of them likely to be good for the inhabitants of Berlin.

 

[zoomar]

They would be difficult to dislodge. The Germans were trying to “dig in,” as it were and use the time they had to build more permanent defenses. However both the USAAF and the RAF were making that task a difficult one. Armed with both high explosives and mustard gas the Allied air forces were making the attempt to fortify the east bank of the Rhine a continuous nightmare.

Wonder why the Germans/Nazis have not emptied PoW as well as concentration camps and used allied prisoners to build the defenses. Announced this. Hostages as it were. Any chance this might affect willingness of allies to bomb and gas defenses being built?

 

[zoomar]

If the allies get fed up of loosing men and killing fanatical SS, couldn't they start dropping nukes here and there ?
Oh crap, looks like operation grandfall vs nukes - OTL debate with Germany instead of Japan... the Rhine instead of the "home islands"

I too wonder if the first use of nukes in this TL might be a battlefield rather than strategic use. Psychologically and morale-wise, totally incinerating several entrenched German Divisions along the Rhine could have the same political effect in the Reich as destroying Nurnburg - with the added fact that the device(s) could be delivered more safely with no Luftwaffe and deep AA defenses to fly through.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Wonder why the Germans/Nazis have not emptied PoW as well as concentration camps and used allied prisoners to build the defenses. Announced this. Hostages as it were. Any chance this might affect willingness of allies to bomb and gas defenses being built?

That'd be a good, if rather dark, idea.

Of course, the Allies could always threaten to use German POWs as laborers on re-bridging projects or outright human shields. Lincoln threatened to kill Confederate POWs in reprisal for killing black soldiers and put them to hard labor in retaliation for re-enslaved blacks, so there's precedent.

 

[Michel Van]

Some of the German jet fighters that had survived the air battle over Belgium were making life difficult for Allied bombers.

here is Answer on that problem: the British Gloster Meteor. operational since october 1944.

in mean time in USA in sky, north of Los Angeles area: XP-80A Gray Ghost

 

[Dan]

While there are more meteors, I think the Me 262 will have the edge in maneuverability and speed. If the Vampire can get into service fast enough then that could do well.

 

[Otis R. Needleman]

That'd be a good, if rather dark, idea.

Of course, the Allies could always threaten to use German POWs as laborers on re-bridging projects or outright human shields. Lincoln threatened to kill Confederate POWs in reprisal for killing black soldiers and put them to hard labor in retaliation for re-enslaved blacks, so there's precedent.

Yup, and that's why the Germans won't use Allied (at least Western) POWs. At this stage of the game we hold hundreds of thousands of German POWs.

 

[PaulJones202718]

Hmmmm. The way things are shaping up now, it looks as if Reagan will be talking about how we had to use atomic weapons to keep Hitler from killing his citizens in box-car lots.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

I would assume that Goering is too "tainted" with his involvement in the war and the Nazi horrors for him to ever be able to play a major role after the war. The best case I can see for him is that he´ll spend the rest of his life hiding somewhere in South America, with the Mossad spending that same time turning over every stone in South America to find him.

It is quite possible that Speer can salvage himself from the Nazi wreckage. Guderian... unlikely, though I am quite sure he could buy himself out of being executed by turning over Hitler to the Allies. But Goering? No freaking chance at all.

With regards to Speer and Goering, I don't disagree at all. I was wondering more that Goering would THINK he had a chance.

Guderian has the least damning dossier of the three, though. I fail to see how handing over Hitler wouldn't improve his lot relative to OTL.

Interesting posts, Geon, and the most plausible out for Churchill regarding Vegetarian. So FDR resigns after inauguration, and Truman is able to hit the ground running? Makes sense.

 

[Garrison]

With regards to Speer and Goering, I don't disagree at all. I was wondering more that Goering would THINK he had a chance.

In OTL I think he entertained some rather optimistic notions that have been shattered here. All he's worrying about is who he can throw to the wolves to buy himself time to escape.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

In OTL I think he entertained some rather optimistic notions that have been shattered here. All he's worrying about is who he can throw to the wolves to buy himself time to escape.

Stuff Hitler into the nosecone of an A4b with pressure suit and oxygen? Aim it at Atwerp?

 

[cubefreak123]

A number of good updates here Geon. Sounds like Hitler may be planning to take Berlin down with him, it's a shame his Parkinson's won't take him out first. I did have couple of thoughts on where things stand and what is to come though.

I think you may be overestimating how effective the Me262 is. Keep in mind that it didn't have that big of an impact in OTL due to the Allies destroying them on the ground and destroying the fuel depots. Not to mention that at this point any Me 262 that goes after bombers is going to be facing the entire escort for the bombers; it doesn't matter how good your plane is if you're outnumbered 5 to 1.

As for the invasion over the Rhine, the Allies will have learned the lessons from Normandy and Market Garden, that's why the crossings in OTL were so effective. Plus you won't have troops caught on a beach trying to climb a ridge if you're crossing a river. Especially when you have these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Tracked

 

[jlckansas]

One thing is Marshall not wanting Marines in Europe. If you have Truman make a top down descision that they need the amphibious know how they have to cross the Rhine and send some amphibious tractor bn. to Europe along with may a division or so of veteran Marine since it looks like they won't be needed in the Pacific against Japan. Also sending alowg a reinforced air wing to back them up might make it really interesting for the Germans. Imagine some of the old Landsers in the Heer finding out the the Teufel Hunden are back and will be the ones leading the attack across the Rhine. You put them in the LVT with the supporting gun and flame LVT's and send them out to setup a bridge head with their own Corsairs overhead providing cab rank tac air support the crossing. I would imagine even the SS might have a few code brown moments.

 

[David in Canada]

I have just finished reading this thread in toto and I must say I am impressed! I feel that I must congratulate Geon for being a magnificent narrator and keeping me on the edge of my seat.

I, for one, can't wait to see what happens next and to learn the ultimate fate of Germany, Japan and her citizens.

 

[Archibald]

Stuff Hitler into the nosecone of an A4b with pressure suit and oxygen? Aim it at Atwerp?

I have this vision of Hitler riding the A4b, Dr Strangelove style "Yeeeeepeeeee"
or somewhat like this guy (watched the naked gun yesterday)

 

[Michel Van]

I have this vision of Hitler riding the A4b, Dr Strangelove style "Yeeeeepeeeee"
or somewhat like this guy (watched the naked gun yesterday)

yep is really not a, "Springtime for Hitler"[1] is More "Gltler Kaputt"[2]

little now fact about Hitler, he was possessed by a work of Richard Wagner[3] "Rienzi, the Last of the Tribunes"
Hitler consider this, as a call to him to rise to power...

so what about "Rienzi, the Last of the Tribunes" ?
it's rise and Fall of Cola di Rienzi and his fight against nobles in Rome and for raising the power of the people.
in end all ist lost, the nobles army encircle Rome, while Rienzi troop burn the city down.
Rienzi stay in his burning Palace facing death.

Odd this similarity with Hitler life...



[1] the Hitler musical from Mel Brooks brilliant "The Producers"
[2] "Gltler Kaputt" a russian movie about hilarious insane adventure of Soviet Spy dress as SS-Officer...
here scene were Hitler got a little bit to much cocaine into his brain
[3] Would Wagner be alive in time of Hitler, he had badmouths in public that austrian to hell...

 

[whatisinaname]

A few thoughts...

Hitler will likely attack London/Paris/Stockholm and other cities in range with A4b's, with no warning the death toll will be high.

Along with key military points, especially Sweden's military forces attacking German army in Norway, not many will be needed?

I would assume a 'normal' A4 can be converted to A4b standard, as their would be quite a few thousand of those around, at what rate they could be converted I do not know, but as a starting point one or two every 24-hours seems sound, now that they work after a hurried development?

Me-262 attacks will continue against allied bombers, with only the best pilots flying these fighters the results will be impressive, but will the WAllies ability to replace these losses it will not affect the outcome. With Me-262 production already dispersed WAllies air attacks against Me-262 production facilities will do nothing, in OTL these Me-262 production facilities where only found when they were overrun by allied ground troops.

Fuel production, with the bulk of the remaining fuel production (do not know how much this would be) going to the defence of Germany, mostly for tank fuel and and the easier to produce J2 jet fuel, Germany front line units will have some fuel but not much.

With the restrictions on fuel German piston engine aircraft will be unable to fly, thus creating a glut of expert pilots for jet operations, like Erich Hartmann etc?