How much shipping did the U-boats have to sink?

I seem to remember hearing that I'd the U-boats had been able to sink 750,000 tons of shipping per month, for 24 months, Britain would be forced to surrender.

Is this accurate? I haven't found figures for the amount of allied shpiping at the start of the war, or numbers for allied shupping production, so I really don't know.

How much shipping would Britain need to stay in the fight?

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Best combination of data and analysis in the relevant chapter in Ellis S Brute Force. The numbers he presents for cargo and ships lost give a clear picture on how and where the Germans fell short in sinking ships. Drawing from the German side it also shows how from mid 1942 submarine losses became unsustainable. & The offensive was confined to the mid Atlantic.

Hughes & Costello's The Battle of the Atlantic is a outstanding chronology of the BoA. Summarizing each phase of the battle from 1939 through 1943, with quarterly statistical summaries it gives a clear view of the course of the campaign's.
 
Last edited:

hipper

Banned
Best combination of data and analysis in the relevant chapter in Ellis S Brute Force. The numbers he presents for cargo and ships lost give a clear picture on how and where the Germans fell short in sinking ships. Drawing from the German side it also shows how from mid 1942 submarine losses became unsustainable. & The offensive was confined to the mid Atlantic.

Hughes & Costello's The Battle of the Atlantic is a outstanding chronology of the BoA. Summarizing each phase of the battle from 1939 through 1943, with quarterly statistical summaries it gives a clear view of the course of the campaign's.


or you can read the defeat of the Enemy attack on shipping here which will tell you all you want to know

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/USN/Defeat-of-Enemy-Attack-on-Shipping.pdf
 
or you can read the defeat of the Enemy attack on shipping here which will tell you all you want to know

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/USN/Defeat-of-Enemy-Attack-on-Shipping.pdf
Ok, so it looks like the British started the war with 19,500,000 tons of shipping, and the allies built 270,000-470,000 tons of shipping per month.
If the Germans sank 750,000 tons per month for 24 months, the British would be losing 280,000 to 480,000 tons of shipping per month, roughly 1.5 to 2.5% of their fleet size. In two years, the British would be down to 7,980,000 to 11,280,000 tons of shipping, roughly half their pre-war fleet.
This still seems like a lot of shipping. Could the British stay in the war with about 10,000,000 tons?
If the Germans want to sink more shipping, they can either:
  • Increase the number of U-boats (more pre-war production, better survivability, or give U-boat construction priority during the war)
  • Increase U-boat time on patrol (better fuel economy, bigger fuel tanks, or underway replenishment)
  • Increase tonnage sunk per U-boat per day at sea (OTL this number was about 750 tons. The Germans could increase this number by fixing their torpedoes during the opening months if the war, or by using effective air reconnaissance to vector U-boats towards ships, instead of U-boats having to make a picket line and hope to stumble on a ship)
  • Increase the tonnage sunk through other means (mines, aircraft, surface raiders, etc) I have no clue how to do this.
If the KM used air reconnaissance to vector U-boats, how much more effective could they have been? I think the majority of ships slipped through the U-boat picket lines undetected durine the first few years of the war. Could the KM make a complete, unobstructed picket line with Fw 200s?
 
Ok, so it looks like the British started the war with 19,500,000 tons of shipping, and the allies built 270,000-470,000 tons of shipping per month.
If the Germans sank 750,000 tons per month for 24 months, the British would be losing 280,000 to 480,000 tons of shipping per month, roughly 1.5 to 2.5% of their fleet size. In two years, the British would be down to 7,980,000 to 11,280,000 tons of shipping, roughly half their pre-war fleet. ...

The caveat here is the Allies adjusted their construction to meet replacement demand. If you look at the quarterly or yearly totals you will see the lag and closure. As 1941 ran out the US placed a increasing priority of cargo ship construction, Which bore results in vastly expanded construction capacity in 1942. This expansion is often misunderstood it was huge & did not represent the maximum potiential of the US.

Neither was the allocation of ASW resources at a maximum potiential level. That was also adjusted upwards each time the German threat increased. ie: The construction of escort ships in the US was ramped up in 1942-43 far over the planned quantity set in late 1941. As the crisis passed in early 1943 planned construction of escorts was revised downwards. Point here is a straight forward increase in submarine construction does not lead to a directly proportional decline in Allied cargo ship losses. There is a large variable in Allied construction deisions that looks difficult to predict in terms of results. ie: the Allies probablly overbuilt in escorts in 1943 before they reduced construction.

Also if you take a close look at Ellis the quantity sunk by aircraft & surface ships are identified seperated from the submarine credit. This bears a closer look while the German effort in terms of surface ships & aircraft was not very efficient those still bore a significant portion of the sinkings 1940-41.

... If the KM used air reconnaissance to vector U-boats, how much more effective could they have been? I think the majority of ships slipped through the U-boat picket lines undetected durine the first few years of the war. Could the KM make a complete, unobstructed picket line with Fw 200s?

Not without serious plans for a war with Britain being executed from 1936-37. The number of German VLR aircraft available, production, and performance was insufficient 1939-42. The Wehrmacht & particularly the navy was told war with Britain would not occur until 1943-44 or later. Preparations were 'poor' & much in the way of experimental or test capabilities. When the unexpected war with Britain came in 1939 efforts to produce the combat capability needed were stalled by the need to complete preparations for defeating nearer enemies like France.
 
Would there be a point where the Merchant Navy would mutiny?

Actual monthly losses were not that visible. The percent of cargo ships sunk globally, or in the several campaign zones were not so high as to reach that level of desperation. ie: When the British were near panic in the winter of 1942 the percentage of embarked cargo not reaching the UK was still under 10%. This percent had reached slightly over 10% in 1942, then slid back to under 5% during 1943. Globally Allied cargo sunk in any particular quarter or month was a far smaller percent of the total embarked. This represents a very small number of crews actually operating on the run into the UK.

My guess is the Allies take counter measures sooner in response to German increases. ie: the allocation of VLR aircraft to ASW long before the spring of 1943. I've seen calculations that the provision of 300-400 VLR aircraft and trained aircrew to the ASW effort in early 1941 would have shut down the submarine threat for the remainder of the war. Even with out the radar equipment of 1943-45. The effect of sufficient short ranged aircraft in the Home Waters in 1940-41, or along the US coasts in 1942, or what just 24 operational VLR aircraft over the mid Atlantic in the spring of 1943 suggests there may be something to this.
 
I half remember reading in one of Anthony Preston's books that the British Merchant Navy suffered higher casualties than the any of the armed forces. That might have been as a percentage of the total force or in absolute terms or both. I don't know if its true, but I also have a vague memory about there being a one-in-four chance of being sunk in the worst month in 1917.
 
Actual monthly losses were not that visible. The percent of cargo ships sunk globally, or in the several campaign zones were not so high as to reach that level of desperation. ie: When the British were near panic in the winter of 1942 the percentage of embarked cargo not reaching the UK was still under 10%. This percent had reached slightly over 10% in 1942, then slid back to under 5% during 1943. Globally Allied cargo sunk in any particular quarter or month was a far smaller percent of the total embarked. This represents a very small number of crews actually operating on the run into the UK.

My guess is the Allies take counter measures sooner in response to German increases. ie: the allocation of VLR aircraft to ASW long before the spring of 1943. I've seen calculations that the provision of 300-400 VLR aircraft and trained aircrew to the ASW effort in early 1941 would have shut down the submarine threat for the remainder of the war. Even with out the radar equipment of 1943-45. The effect of sufficient short ranged aircraft in the Home Waters in 1940-41, or along the US coasts in 1942, or what just 24 operational VLR aircraft over the mid Atlantic in the spring of 1943 suggests there may be something to this.
When did/could the allies close the mid-atlantic gap with aircraft and escorts?
 
Not long after the Newfoundland units was operational another group started operating out of Iceland. I'm unsure when VLR aircraft started out of the Azores or Bermuda. Short & medium ranges aircraft were operating from Newfoundland, Iceland, Bermuda, ect... from 1940 & were very effective. The Germans were forced to cease general sub operations in the UK home waters late 1940-early 41. Both Hap Arnold & the Brit air chiefs were opposed to the use of any VLR aircraft for ASW & had to be forced to it from the top. Until then it was models like the Hudson, the PBY Catalinia, that stood in this task. The last of the B18 Bolos were used as ASW out of US airfields.
 
In the Spring f 1943 a U.S. liberator squadron workng from Newfoundland it could have.been closed at any time in 1941

This reminds of Col Halversons B24 Group, which spent all of 1942 attempting to set up operations in China, India, the Middle East, and Egypt. Its single real raid was experimental attack on the Rumanian oil industry, maybe twenty planes? This experimental Group might have accomplished a lot more had it been learning ASW techniques over the Atlantic in the first half of 1942.
 
I half remember reading in one of Anthony Preston's books that the British Merchant Navy suffered higher casualties than the any of the armed forces. That might have been as a percentage of the total force or in absolute terms or both. I don't know if its true, but I also have a vague memory about there being a one-in-four chance of being sunk in the worst month in 1917.

My memory of the Great War sub campaign is stale. Looking at Hughes & Costello for the winter 42-43 crisis period I see many of the convoys crossed to the UK without any losses. I suspect that part of the British angst in this period was the loss of ability to penetrate the Enigma four rotor encryption. They had a reduced ability to track sub operations with DF & other signal analysis. They also were nonplussed to learn, & the USN more so, that the convoy code had been compromised earlier. Closing that security hole reduced sucessful intercepts, & drove down the ratio of sunk cargo to sub sorties, leaving the ratio of subs sunk to sub sorties increasing. In the winter of 43 the loss of subs was increasing, in March it was headed towards unsustainable levels. In April Donitz recognized this & withdrew the sub wolfpacks from the north Atlantic. He planned a summer campaign to intercept the routes to the Mediterranean, but attritional losses (maintinance backlog), crew training, & Allied action, prevented this campaign from developing fully.
 
Last edited:
If the Germans had developed a snorkel that could be operated at full speed by 1939, could this negate the power of ASW aircraft?
 

Deleted member 1487

This reminds of Col Halversons B24 Group, which spent all of 1942 attempting to set up operations in China, India, the Middle East, and Egypt. Its single real raid was experimental attack on the Rumanian oil industry, maybe twenty planes? This experimental Group might have accomplished a lot more had it been learning ASW techniques over the Atlantic in the first half of 1942.
I can't like this more than once unfortunately; even without forcing the Germans to spent 5% of air defense resources on Romania, they could have ended the BotA at least 9 months earlier with far greater positive impact than whatever was done by those bombers IOTL.

If the Germans had developed a snorkel that could be operated at full speed by 1939, could this negate the power of ASW aircraft?
Not by 1943 when microwave airborne radar could spot periscopes. Now Walter boats...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XVII_submarine
Apparently the Swedes use this technology today and have world class subs. Those could survive in British coastal waters and ambush convoys before sprinting away.
 
I can't like this more than once unfortunately; even without forcing the Germans to spent 5% of air defense resources on Romania, they could have ended the BotA at least 9 months earlier with far greater positive impact than whatever was done by those bombers IOTL.


Not by 1943 when microwave airborne radar could spot periscopes. Now Walter boats...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XVII_submarine
Apparently the Swedes use this technology today and have world class subs. Those could survive in British coastal waters and ambush convoys before sprinting away.

True, the peroxide powered boats would have ended the battle sooner, mainly by self-destructing.
The technology simply wasn't viable in that time period.
 
Ok, so it looks like the British started the war with 19,500,000 tons of shipping, and the allies built 270,000-470,000 tons of shipping per month.
If the Germans sank 750,000 tons per month for 24 months, the British would be losing 280,000 to 480,000 tons of shipping per month, roughly 1.5 to 2.5% of their fleet size. In two years, the British would be down to 7,980,000 to 11,280,000 tons of shipping, roughly half their pre-war fleet.
This still seems like a lot of shipping. Could the British stay in the war with about 10,000,000 tons?
If the Germans want to sink more shipping, they can either:
  • Increase the number of U-boats (more pre-war production, better survivability, or give U-boat construction priority during the war)
  • Increase U-boat time on patrol (better fuel economy, bigger fuel tanks, or underway replenishment)
  • Increase tonnage sunk per U-boat per day at sea (OTL this number was about 750 tons. The Germans could increase this number by fixing their torpedoes during the opening months if the war, or by using effective air reconnaissance to vector U-boats towards ships, instead of U-boats having to make a picket line and hope to stumble on a ship)
  • Increase the tonnage sunk through other means (mines, aircraft, surface raiders, etc) I have no clue how to do this.
If the KM used air reconnaissance to vector U-boats, how much more effective could they have been? I think the majority of ships slipped through the U-boat picket lines undetected durine the first few years of the war. Could the KM make a complete, unobstructed picket line with Fw 200s?

(1) Increasing pre-war production breaks the naval treaty, British shipyards go into mass production of escorts. U-boats already had a high priority during the war.
(2) Better fuel economy, how exactly? The Diesel was the most economical engine available. Bigger fuel tanks means bigger more expensive boats, so fewer built.
(3) German torpedoes weren't terrible against merchant targets even early on, and they were soon fixed. Just where are all these aircraft coming from, and how good are they at spotting a convoy in the often bad Atlantic weather (no ASV, remember). Plus of course there were counters available (if necessary), in the form of cannon-armed fighters.
(4) More surface raiders? the existing ones were dealt with reasonably early on. Building more pre-war runs into the treaties again. Mines, sure, but how are you deploying them?? Aircraft that can survive attack aren't available, and the long range Condors are limited.
 

Deleted member 1487

True, the peroxide powered boats would have ended the battle sooner, mainly by self-destructing.
The technology simply wasn't viable in that time period.
You sure about that? From what I gathered there wasn't much effort invested in making it viable, it was all plowed into the Elektroboote
 
Let's grant that there is some level of U-boat investment Hitler could theoretically have made to so badly impede British (and if the Alliance lasts long enough, Allied--that is to say, US mostly) shipping that Britain would have no choice but sue for terms. I haven't looked over the above numbers to begin to guess at it. Of course the Allies would respond by diverting more effort into ASW measures, but that costs them too, and from a diminished resource base given sufficient Kriegsmarine magnitude.

How to do it?
{ninja'd by Astrodragon!}
Ok, so it looks like the British started the war with 19,500,000 tons of shipping, and the allies built 270,000-470,000 tons of shipping per month.
If the Germans sank 750,000 tons per month for 24 months, the British would be losing 280,000 to 480,000 tons of shipping per month, roughly 1.5 to 2.5% of their fleet size. In two years, the British would be down to 7,980,000 to 11,280,000 tons of shipping, roughly half their pre-war fleet.
This still seems like a lot of shipping. Could the British stay in the war with about 10,000,000 tons?
If the Germans want to sink more shipping, they can either:
  • Increase the number of U-boats (more pre-war production, better survivability, or give U-boat construction priority during the war)
Hitler suffered several constraints before the war limiting pre-production. For one thing, U-boats though far cheaper than the capital ships the KM wanted, still cost, and before the conquest of first Poland then western Europe resources were limited. To build more U-boats he'd have to flatly deny the KM the surface ships they desired. He was also under considerable political constraint, as building U-boats was a red flag waved in Britain's face. He hoped to keep the British out of the war, and if they did happen to come in he wanted them doing so as late as possible, and even hoped to persuade them to drop out if they did declare war. So threatening Britain's shipping and the RN was dangerous for him to do. In those circumstances, he did better to gratify the KM admirals with their surface ship plans since the RN was confident they could contain these. Thus, unless he felt he could keep mass production of U-boats secret from the British--a very bad bet--his hands were tied.

Making U-boats "more survivable" is a design issue, dealt with below.

I believe he did give them priority during the war, at least after they failed to drop out after the fall of France. Given hindsight knowledge of the relative effectiveness of different systems, perhaps funding that went OTL to V-weapons and grandiose tank schemes and so forth might have been better channeled into U-boat production, but it was going great guns OTL anyway.
  • Increase U-boat time on patrol (better fuel economy, bigger fuel tanks, or underway replenishment)
  • Increase tonnage sunk per U-boat per day at sea (OTL this number was about 750 tons. The Germans could increase this number by fixing their torpedoes during the opening months if the war, or by using effective air reconnaissance to vector U-boats towards ships, instead of U-boats having to make a picket line and hope to stumble on a ship)
All of this is counsels of perfection! Given a time traveller with blueprints of the best designs of 1944, surely each boat made could have been far more effective. Short of this--even if he were to give the KM secret funds to run hidden yards in which to design the most advanced forms they could think of before the war, with systems untested in battle, they'd be guessing wrong a lot. Some technology just plain requires time. Other nifty design features would become infeasible with Allied denial of resources to the Reich.

And all of this risks exposure of German apparent intent to wage heavy war on Britain, which as with churning out mass numbers of known designs would perhaps raise British resolve to face Hitler down say in the 1938 Czechoslovakia crisis, which if the British could get France on board would spell total disaster for Hitler. Neither France nor Britain could do much to aid the Czechs directly, though their diplomatic channels might open up supply routes via Romania for instance, or Poland via Romania--but this is a long shot, as would be persuading anyone in Eastern Europe to allow passage of Soviet allied troops. But France would pose a formidable threat on the German western border, British command of the sea would seal off German seaport access, Hitler would have no access to say Portuguese tungsten except perhaps through Italy, and anyway the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe at that point were so weak that the Czechs alone could give them a long hard fight, and in the time and attrition they bring, France could invade with crushing force. Many people claim the German Army would mutiny if the Czech crisis escalated to an anti-Entente war like this; even leaving that aside Hitler could not risk war in 1938.

I daresay quite a lot of advanced design work was conducted before September 1939, but after all the various flawed systems you cite were products of that cleverness. Mistakes will be made.

Once France had fallen, Hitler had a lot more resources to work with, including guaranteed access to Swedish iron ore and Portuguese tungsten. And the politics of lulling the RN was moot. The German war machine did have all stops pulled out. We witnessed the OTL results.
  • Increase the tonnage sunk through other means (mines, aircraft, surface raiders, etc) I have no clue how to do this.
The Reich tried OTL; probably if you think of something they did not try you'll find it was either in the works but took too long to attain, or was practically unattainable for them. With a time traveler's hindsight they might have dropped dozens of lines of development and focused on just a few and been more effective with these. Effective enough to cut off Britain? Maybe, that depends on numbers. But anyway they did not enjoy this sort of hindsight and had no plausible means of getting it.
If the KM used air reconnaissance to vector U-boats, how much more effective could they have been? I think the majority of ships slipped through the U-boat picket lines undetected durine the first few years of the war. Could the KM make a complete, unobstructed picket line with Fw 200s?

But they did do this too, as soon and as well as they could. I've wondered if airships could have helped them--being inflated with hydrogen of course they'd be vulnerable in the narrow passages past British air defenses, but airplanes managed to evade intercept, and once out over the Atlantic they might be able to stay out for months or even years, provided they could figure out how to survive storms. OTL the USN blimp service conducted something called "Operation Whole Gale" in the late 1950s, to demonstrate they could indeed remain on active duty during the worst stormy season. Prewar the Zeppelin operations were confined to the calm summer months, even the legendary captain and firm head (until demoted by the Nazis) Dr. Hugo Eckener did not want to risk one of his few creations defying Atlantic storms. I think Whole Gale demonstrates they could have, but there would be few opportunities to test this and gain experience before the war even if Zeppelin production were increased a hundredfold. Possibly the non-rigid construction of the much smaller American blimps had something to do with their ability to recover from adverse weather too, but I don't see how.

Perhaps it is a good thing for the West that Hitler, Goering and most Nazis generally despised Zeppelins as symbols of the effete pre-Great War monarchial/aristocratic order, and for being slow and fragile versus virile, manly warplanes! If a half dozen or so Zeppelins could get out over the Atlantic, with hook-on airplanes to widen their scouting range while keeping themselves over the horizon of British observers, I think operating as pure scouts they could indeed vector and coordinate U-boats more effectively, while some U-boats could be detailed to keep the airships supplied with fuel and perhaps ammo. In certain circumstances perhaps airships could even serve to strike at some seaborne commerce directly, with radio controlled glide bombs, perhaps with rocket assist or Argus pulse jet engines, while staying out of range of retaliatory AA. Hook-on fighters would be a poor defense against a squadron of proper land or carrier based fighting planes (even if plane for plane they are equal the surface borne planes would come in greater numbers than an airship could sustain) but might serve quite well to shoot down light seaplanes and so forth. Perhaps not against a Sunderland or something like that!

So I've had some fun imagining an ATL where the Great War KM Zeppelin commander Peter Strasser is not killed off and winds up taking Hitler's place as dictator of an aggressive Germany that goes to war against Britain, but this time with a hundred or so war Zeppelins bearing a few fighters of the Me-109 class or maybe eventually something better, and some light scout planes to serve as eyes for the U-boat fleet. Given fuel, ammo, food supplies and hydrogen refills, I suppose such Zeppelins might remain on station for years, evading RN/RAF attempts to hunt them down, vectoring subs and detecting and attacking Allied submarines too.

But it is pretty marginal. Zeppelin company learned to churn out Zeppelins by the dozens a year during WWI and might, with backing from the government, learned to produce greater numbers of bigger and much more capable airships in the 1940s, at a cost perhaps much lower than even a U-boat. The hitch is their vulnerability once detected and located. As with submarines, there would be no way to build up capacity before the war, though plausibly the Germans could get away with a small fleet of a dozen or so to test out the most state of the art tech to include in the wartime built standard models. So it would be production line versus production line, and perhaps I underestimate the cost per item even under ideal conditions pretty badly, as well as their viability once they manage to find station over the wide Atlantic.

After all, the way to survive a storm is to run with it. This would take them off station and to predictable locations where British fleet and air elements might be lying in wait for them.
 
Top