How Long Could the Ottomans Last?

Firs of all, if this idea was made a thread recently, I am sorry.

Second of all, the title says it all. Assuming the Ottomans stay neutral in WWI or even join the Allies, could the Ottoman Empire survive much longer? I know it was called the Sick Man of Europe, but still. If it could stay away from the wrong side of the Great War, could it last to WW2 or even to modern times?

Lastly, depending how long it lasts, how would things change in the Middle East if it was under Ottoman rule for even a little longer? Would it change the relationships between Turks, Arabs, Jews, Kurds, etc.?
 
Personally, I think that most of the Middle East to its south is a lost cause. They're going to have to deal with Arab nationalism sooner or later, and European powers, at the very least, a European Power, will use the Arabs to achieve their own ends in the Mideast. It's often said that after oil is discovered in the Mideast, Ottomans are going to be rich and possibly powers again, but frankly, I think that after factoring in European powers, the oil will simply become a resource curse for whoever owns it.

Having said that, I believe that none of this precludes an Ottoman Empire surviving into modern times. Specifically, I mean a Turkey ruled by an Ottoman Sultan, mostly unopposed.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Firs of all, if this idea was made a thread recently, I am sorry.

Second of all, the title says it all. Assuming the Ottomans stay neutral in WWI or even join the Allies, could the Ottoman Empire survive much longer? I know it was called the Sick Man of Europe, but still. If it could stay away from the wrong side of the Great War, could it last to WW2 or even to modern times?

Lastly, depending how long it lasts, how would things change in the Middle East if it was under Ottoman rule for even a little longer? Would it change the relationships between Turks, Arabs, Jews, Kurds, etc.?

They would still be around, and they would still be an important power. Europe will need the oil, and once the Ottomans start serious oil exports out of Northern Iraq, their financial issue go away and they have a revitalization. They have a good chance to still be ruling most of Arabia in some fashion.
 
Personally, I think that most of the Middle East to its south is a lost cause. They're going to have to deal with Arab nationalism sooner or later, and European powers, at the very least, a European Power, will use the Arabs to achieve their own ends in the Mideast. It's often said that after oil is discovered in the Mideast, Ottomans are going to be rich and possibly powers again, but frankly, I think that after factoring in European powers, the oil will simply become a resource curse for whoever owns it.

Having said that, I believe that none of this precludes an Ottoman Empire surviving into modern times. Specifically, I mean a Turkey ruled by an Ottoman Sultan, mostly unopposed.
I don't believe that the Middle East is a lost cause for the Ottoman Empire. Arab nationalism was limited to a small group of mainly Christian and Egyptian intellectuals until after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire offered a credible alternative to Arab Nationalism (mainly, Islamic nationalism/Islamism) so unless this ceased to be a factor, I have difficulty seeing how Arab nationalism could over-take it at all. The Arabs will still be more willing to side with their Ottoman Caliph than the Europeans oppressing other Arabs in North Africa, so encouraging division to seek control of oil doesn't make any sense.

Much more likely, the Europeans will prefer to work with the Ottoman Empire at extracting the oil fairly easily. Its not exactly as if the Ottomans would forbid European companies from operating in the Empire, though their privileges may be curbed during WW1.

As to answer the rest of the OP's question, relations are likely to be vastly changed. Non-Muslim minorities had declared equality since the 1830's (and actual legal equality since the 1850's), but the Ottoman Empire still suffered from occasional bouts of communal violence, usually resulting from Christians seeking more power and autonomy locally) which increased after the independence of Bulgaria. The question is what happens to the Armenians. If the Ottomans stay out of World War One, they may not bid for independence after all, but they will continue to be a problem for the Ottoman government until Russia's government collapses (which may be delayed if the Ottomans are neutral, or even butterflied). The position of the Jews will be improved compared to their position today in the Middle East, but there will be no Israel, and only limited Jewish settlement in Palestine. The Ottoman sultans had rejected Zionist offers to pay their debt in return for Palestine on a matter of principle, so the chances of them agreeing later on are small as well. The Sultans are likely to allow some immigration in order to stimulate the underdeveloped local economy, but not too many.

As for Kurds, their status will be interlinked with that of the Armenians. As long as they are still around in significant numbers, the Empire will likely play one off against the other (the Kurds had been troublesome sometimes for the Ottoman Empire for non-Nationalist reasons, but unlike the Armenians, could be appealed to on religious grounds).
 
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In general to the modern day, however without providing a specific year in mind it's impossible to determine its territorial extent.
 
The royal family itself wouldn't last until the present day while holding on to any real power. The Young Turks might declare a republic at any time.

A more-effective-than-OTL Turkish intervention in the Russian Civil war is possible since Turkey would have had four years to build up an effective army and there would have been no Armenian massacre. Optimal territorial outcome: Turkey gets most of the Caucasus and the breakaway Central Asian emirates as protectorates.
 

Thande

Donor
I know it was called the Sick Man of Europe, but still.

It was called the Sick Man of Europe by people (i.e. Russia) who wanted to persuade other people (i.e. Britain and France) that it was going to fail soon anyway so they had better allow them to move in and grab all its stuff to avoid the ensuing chaos. It wasn't actually true.
 
It was called the Sick Man of Europe by people (i.e. Russia) who wanted to persuade other people (i.e. Britain and France) that it was going to fail soon anyway so they had better allow them to move in and grab all its stuff to avoid the ensuing chaos. It wasn't actually true.
Exactly. Heck, Russia could have been called the Sick Man. Equally Austria-Hungary. It's all about perspective. With a POD in WWI, you'd have an influential newly emerging economy in the present with the Ottoman Empire...if oil is found in due time, the Dutch and British won't be so happy to see the more easily bendable empire get thrown into chaos, so expect a lot of help to keep it up, and eventual growth.

The 1750 map game Ottoman Empire on the other hand is a powerhouse, what with Libyan and Arab oil, as well as prime land for increased solar tech usage. That is the world where the Ottomans win.
 

Thande

Donor
Exactly. Heck, Russia could have been called the Sick Man. Equally Austria-Hungary. It's all about perspective. With a POD in WWI, you'd have an influential newly emerging economy in the present with the Ottoman Empire...if oil is found in due time, the Dutch and British won't be so happy to see the more easily bendable empire get thrown into chaos, so expect a lot of help to keep it up, and eventual growth.

The 1750 map game Ottoman Empire on the other hand is a powerhouse, what with Libyan and Arab oil, as well as prime land for increased solar tech usage. That is the world where the Ottomans win.

The key thing you have to understand about the Ottoman Empire is that its culture and mode of governance was so different from the European norm that (most) Europeans never really understood it, and so people interpreted things like political assassinations and rebellions as being signs of weakness and instability when they were things that routinely happened even at the height of the Empire's power (and indeed that of its precursor the Byzantine Empire). You can find accounts by European travellers from the 1600s that dismiss the Ottoman Empire as being on the verge of collapse, one of them being written about ten years before the Empire almost conquered Vienna!
 
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