You are correct nothing happened all at once, I think after Mandela was released than elected, Mugabe was no longer the world's ideal African leader. Many have also said that his first wife served as a reminder of his better instincts. I also believe he may have fallen into what Putin is doing now, "I will lose my position and my head unless I keep my more extreme supporters happy"
How long could Rhodesia have held out?
- Thread starter Vera Strawberry
- Start date
/u/profrhodes on Reddit has done some incredible scholarship on the specifics of Rhodesia and the Bush War. Some that come to mind:
Their explanation for the success of Botswana.
Their answer for how developed were the white areas of Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa compared to the West in the time, which has this funny comparison:
More importantly: What did USSR and PRC stand to gain by destabilizing Rhodesia? which goes to how some of the communist leanings of the Zimbabwean nationalists were rather exaggerated.
And, always good to know, how racist was Rhodesia compared to South Africa? (covered in excruciating and gut-wrenching detail - and drops the tidbit that the Klan was present in the country!)
Their explanation for the success of Botswana.
Their answer for how developed were the white areas of Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa compared to the West in the time, which has this funny comparison:
More importantly: What did USSR and PRC stand to gain by destabilizing Rhodesia? which goes to how some of the communist leanings of the Zimbabwean nationalists were rather exaggerated.
And, always good to know, how racist was Rhodesia compared to South Africa? (covered in excruciating and gut-wrenching detail - and drops the tidbit that the Klan was present in the country!)
Two more points about that blighted place:
My thread asking what if the British Governor of Rhodesia, Sir Humphrey Gibbs, had tried to arrest Ian Smith with support from senior officers of the Rhodesian Army at the beginning of/shortly before UDI. Could this have led to civil war between the Rhodesian whites or probably more likely, some sort of coup in the military against the pro-British moderate leadership by Front and Smith supporters. That would make an interesting mess of things and really make Smith look even more radical and the British look even more like a bunch of meddlers, eh?
ZAPU leader Joshua Nkomo, like Sun Yat-Sen in China, supported the land value tax of Henry George!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Nkomo#Politics_1980–1999
Racist pro-Rhodesian supporters always cry crocodile tears about Mugabe but damn we could've had Nkomo's Georgist Zimbabwe holy crap smdh
My thread asking what if the British Governor of Rhodesia, Sir Humphrey Gibbs, had tried to arrest Ian Smith with support from senior officers of the Rhodesian Army at the beginning of/shortly before UDI. Could this have led to civil war between the Rhodesian whites or probably more likely, some sort of coup in the military against the pro-British moderate leadership by Front and Smith supporters. That would make an interesting mess of things and really make Smith look even more radical and the British look even more like a bunch of meddlers, eh?
British Governor of Southern Rhodesia attempts to arrest Ian Smith for UDI, another civil war?
This was the previous thread that discussed British military intervention in Rhodesia in response to UDI. As part of the discussion, I found this thesis paper that is focused on British responses to the Rhodesian Crisis: https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/314/1/Watts06PhD.pdf The full...
www.alternatehistory.com
ZAPU leader Joshua Nkomo, like Sun Yat-Sen in China, supported the land value tax of Henry George!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Nkomo#Politics_1980–1999
Racist pro-Rhodesian supporters always cry crocodile tears about Mugabe but damn we could've had Nkomo's Georgist Zimbabwe holy crap smdh
Since you didn't put any restrictions on the PoD, might I suggest a Nazi victory in WW 2? It's unlikely but not impossible, as I wrote a plausible TL on it myself titled The Fatherland. In that TL Nazi Germany supports Rhodesia until Apartheid ends in South Africa in 1994, though I could've written it for support to last until present day given how murderous the Nazis were.
The other crazy thing I learned from Wikipedia is that Rhodesia actually tried to use chemical and biological weapons, which just reinforces the pariah state evil of it all. That said, not sure how credible this article actually is.
en.wikipedia.org
Rhodesia and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia
This would open a can of worms. Now what if South Africa helped Rhodesia in developing nuclear weapons?The other crazy thing I learned from Wikipedia is that Rhodesia actually tried to use chemical and biological weapons, which just reinforces the pariah state evil of it all. That said, not sure how credible this article actually is.
Rhodesia and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia
South Africa only just could pull that off, Rhodesia never had the resources. Their chemical and biological weapons programs were for the most part low-rent antics like poisoning water with pesticides and heavy metals and trying to accelerate the spread of diseases that already existed there. They wanted to try out more advanced stuff like the use of ricin and botulism toxin but never got far with that.
Last edited:
According to that Wiki article, they did try the 'thrax.
Why would there be Great War chemicals all the way in Africa?
Why would there be Great War chemicals all the way in Africa?
Anthrax isn't easy to weaponize in an aerosol form but using it to poison supplies or water is possible but probably not terribly effective.
That, and after 60 years of decaying, how potent would they be and how dangerous would their containers be?
Without any prior changes, then it would be the early 1980s. Rhodesia was running severely low on oil, and that was before 1/4 of it was destroyed in a 1978 ZANLA raid on a fuel depot in Salisbury, after about 1982, Rhodesia could no longer afford the war and would be forced to launch a counter insurgency, which would turn every Rhodesian city into a warzone.
A lot of the failures of Rhodesia came down the early behaviour of Ian Smith, he was profoundly anti-decolonisation and the UDI was a national suicide, Rhodesia should instead have demanded dominionship or even integration into the UK. NATO would've been more likely to support Rhodesia if the Vickers Viscounts were shot down in 1968 instead of 1978, and the efforts of ZANLA more intense. Another error was in the military, which was overfunded and ended up leaving Zimbabwe bankrupt from birth, if he used the police to tackle raids, then there would've been less fear in African communities. Another error was by entering other countries, a large portion of Rhodesia's neighbours wanted to recognise the quasi-terrorist state for its exports, but raids into the ambivalent nations of Zambia and Botswana kept them from supporting them and led to people from those countries joining in the war, this strategy also inflamed tensions in Mozambique. If Smith stayed in the union, ended racially separated voting rolls, focused more on economic growth than military crackdowns, didn't censor the press and gently pivoted for independence, we could see Rhodesia on Google Maps.
A lot of the failures of Rhodesia came down the early behaviour of Ian Smith, he was profoundly anti-decolonisation and the UDI was a national suicide, Rhodesia should instead have demanded dominionship or even integration into the UK. NATO would've been more likely to support Rhodesia if the Vickers Viscounts were shot down in 1968 instead of 1978, and the efforts of ZANLA more intense. Another error was in the military, which was overfunded and ended up leaving Zimbabwe bankrupt from birth, if he used the police to tackle raids, then there would've been less fear in African communities. Another error was by entering other countries, a large portion of Rhodesia's neighbours wanted to recognise the quasi-terrorist state for its exports, but raids into the ambivalent nations of Zambia and Botswana kept them from supporting them and led to people from those countries joining in the war, this strategy also inflamed tensions in Mozambique. If Smith stayed in the union, ended racially separated voting rolls, focused more on economic growth than military crackdowns, didn't censor the press and gently pivoted for independence, we could see Rhodesia on Google Maps.
Also they probably shouldn’t have jailed and quashed all of the moderate opposition and allowed the most uncompromising rebels to win. Like the CSA or Imperial Japan, they gambled it all on winning the conflict with their racial hierarchical state intact only to lose it all because they were unwilling to accept that they had no strategic future.
The only way they couldve held out is that if they give majority rule. Ban the radical parties and movements, empower the black moderates
An internal settlement in 1973, would go over better than 1979. Muzorewa, Chirau, and Nkomo, might have been brought together.
Governor Gibbs accepts the offer from Rhodesian senior military officers to arrest Ian Smith for the UDI, the lower- and mid- rank and file of the military respond sharply; at best confining the governor to Government House and quietly forcing Hawkins, Putterill, and other likeminded officers into retirement, at worst using force and Gibbs is hurt or even killed. Anything from a young officers-style barracks coup to a low-level civil war between the white population breaks out. African nationalist guerrillas and disgruntled black labor groups make their move. The country is thrown into turmoil, Her Majesty's representative has been thwarted or even slain. This gives a clear casus belli for the British to act- the question is, would they?
Perhaps if Rhodesia opened its gates to all immigrants, most notably dissidents from Communist countries?
Which would completely defy the point of its UDI in the first place, that being to have their society be the way they wanted it. Such dissidents would surely change that, probably pretty quickly.