How big could the British Empire get if they avoid the ARW?

Lusitania

Donor
I see French or Spanish Louisiana being split into two with French trying to maintain southern part let say to St. Louis as part of its settler colony along with French snd Spanish carribean. While BNA taking the north part of the territory to link the British northwest territory to eastern BNA.
 
But again you discussing iotl events. No guarantee of Napoleon rising to power. Almost guarantee not to. When the French Revolution happens almost certain not happen like iotl. French navy could continue to grow and its officers stay unlike iotl.

rherefore everything is up in air.

You may be right. I can't say for sure what would happen without the ARW adding additional debt onto the back of the French Regime. What we can say is the finances of the regime were seriously unsound, and almost irreformable. The social order was also hopelessly reactionary, the economy grossly in efferent. The monarchy was headed by a weak king, who was well intended, but lacked the forceful personality to push through a major reform program.

The king had basically two choices in 1789, to reform the regime. He could stage a coup from above, and brake the power of the Aristocracy, and Clergy, going well beyond what Louis XIV did. Second he could call the Estates General in an effort to forge a compromise agreement. He took the second course. The Aristocrats, and High Clergy had no interest in paying taxes, or giving up any ancient privileges. We know what happened then. The king completely lost control of the situation, and the Ancient Regime fell in blood.

The Enlightenment ideas were already there, they didn't really need the example of 1776, and Tomas Paine's Common Sense. So you could still say even without the ARW that France was a timebomb, waiting to go off. There were just so many resentments just below the surface. It's hard to imagine the Regime surviving very long into even a semi industrialized age. How long can they keep the rising merchant class, hungry urban poor, and landless country people down? The Regime's odds get shorter every year.

Now another question would be just how radical the revolution has to be. A less radical revolution would have made France stronger, not weaker. A reformed France would have had a better chance against the British in a conflict. All war machines rest on the strength of their economies. Napoleon was able to reform the economy, and streamline it, removing medieval impediments. Creating a uniform legal code, and an efferent tax system were huge leaps forward. Land reform helped stabilize the social order in the countryside, and the agricultural economy improved. He tried hard to convince the aristocratic exiles to return, just those naval experts the navy lost in the revolution, with mixed results.

Saying all that the British still have big advantages. Their economy became stronger with each war with the French, and the British Government was always able to finance them. Britain was primarily a maritime power, with strong commercial interests, while France was primarily a land power, with an agricultural economy. French designs were fine sailing ships, yet their British counterparts usually out sailed them. The French Ships of the Line actually carried heavier main armament, but were almost always effectively out gunned. In boarding actions they were usually out fought. In Frigates the British usually out gunned the French, and won about 90% of the time. British seaman were better trained, could fire guns often twice as fast, had higher moral, and their Admirals, and Captains fought with much greater aggression, and confidence.

The same was largely true during the what is called the Quasi War between the United States, and France, to American advantage. The finest hour for the French was the Battle between the USS Constellation and the La Vengeance. The French had a heavier broadside, and a bigger crew, but still lost the battle. In a hard fought action, Constellation fired 1,129 rounds vs. La Vengeance 742. Constellation suffered 40 casualties, vs.160 on La Vengeance. La Vengeance struck her colors twice, but managed to escape when Constellation's main mast fell before she could come along side. La Vengeance had to run aground to avoid sinking.

The French just seemed to be consistently behind the curve. They did well in the ARW, but they still ended up losing the war at sea. In that war they had the advantage of having no enemy on land, so they could concentrate on the navy. It's debatable if they could duplicate, let alone surpass that level of proficiency again during the age of sail. It is possible under the right circumstances, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If you know a lot about naval warfare in this era, lets take a wild hypothetical. After the Battle of Navarino, in 1827 the British, have a falling out with their allies. The French, and British square off in the Mediterranean. France has had 12 years to rebuild their navy, can they match the British ship, for ship, fleet for fleet, sailor for sailor, captain for captain, admiral for admiral. Lay out your own scenario, I'd be interested in what you might come up with.
 
I would assume the British Empire would be smaller in such a TL.

How come? The big factor that led to the expansion of the British Empire was India, and Company rule in the subcontinent had already been firmly established by the time of the American Revolution - indeed, it was bolstered as a result of the Seven Years' War. Many of the colonial ventures undertaken by the British after this point (the Cape, the Suez, various African colonies) were undertaken at least in part so that the trade lanes with India would remain secure. That incentive will remain present in a timeline where the Revolution is averted. Now, I suppose that Australasia could remain largely uncolonized by the British in this scenario, but then again, one of the things that Americans resented about British rule was the perception that the colonies were being used as a dumping ground for criminals. It is not inconceivable that London could agree to restrict this practice in order to help keep the Americans happy, and if so, they would soon find themselves in the market for another penal colony...
 
I see French or Spanish Louisiana being split into two with French trying to maintain southern part let say to St. Louis as part of its settler colony along with French snd Spanish carribean. While BNA taking the north part of the territory to link the British northwest territory to eastern BNA.

The problem with the Anglo/Americans accepting Franco/Spanish control of Louisiana is the same as in the OTL, control of the Mississippi River. Commerce down the Ohio, and the rivers that flow into it pass into the Mississippi, and down to New Orleans. Later commerce also flows down the Missouri, and other western rivers into the Mississippi. Ocean traffic flows back up the rivers. Pittsburg is a port city, and shipyard, so are hundreds of other midwestern cities. Any power having control of the lower Mississippi can strangle the commerce of everything west of the Allegany Mountains. By purchase, or war New Orleans has to be in Anglo/American hands.
 
How come? The big factor that led to the expansion of the British Empire was India, and Company rule in the subcontinent had already been firmly established by the time of the American Revolution - indeed, it was bolstered as a result of the Seven Years' War. Many of the colonial ventures undertaken by the British after this point (the Cape, the Suez, various African colonies) were undertaken at least in part so that the trade lanes with India would remain secure. That incentive will remain present in a timeline where the Revolution is averted. Now, I suppose that Australasia could remain largely uncolonized by the British in this scenario, but then again, one of the things that Americans resented about British rule was the perception that the colonies were being used as a dumping ground for criminals. It is not inconceivable that London could agree to restrict this practice in order to help keep the Americans happy, and if so, they would soon find themselves in the market for another penal colony...


Excellent points, but let me say a word for poor Australia. She wasn't exclusively a penal colony. They did have many willing settlers, who wanted a new start. The Irish Diaspora flowed in many directions. It's my understand the only American Colony used as a penal dumping ground was Georgia. If anyone knows differently please let us know.
 
The big factor that led to the expansion of the British Empire was India, and Company rule in the subcontinent had already been firmly established by the time of the American Revolution

Even so, I’d question the ability of the British to be as successful in India with this more westward focus. By the arw, the British are at best regional powers in eastern India, who don’t necessarily look poised to take the rest of the subcontinent. They might keep Bengal and maybe arcot but expansion out of that is by no means a given.

Moreover, with a more westward focus, british ability to maintain control of what they do have is more limited as well in case of an atl 1857 style revolt.

Id also be interested to see the effect on the Qing.
 
Excellent points, but let me say a word for poor Australia. She wasn't exclusively a penal colony. They did have many willing settlers, who wanted a new start. The Irish Diaspora flowed in many directions. It's my understand the only American Colony used as a penal dumping ground was Georgia. If anyone knows differently please let us know.
There is a narrow window where Australia might be established as a colony after a unsuccessful rebellion in America. It was looked upon a a strategic base for operations against Spain in the Pacific so from about 1780 to 1800 (or whenever Britain next gets into a war with Spain) it's possible something gets established. If Spain and Britain come to blows too early then the temptation will be to remove Spanish influence from California and Louisiana (possibly Texas too). In which case the argument for a colony in Australia goes away.
 
i don't get where people get the idea that the US is always going to become the hub of the empire. The immigration was no sure thing, heavily dependent on the US being the size of a continent and having swaths of land that was free for the taking. It's gold rushes were outside the colonies for example. A lot of the key industrial stuff is too. They would certainly be the most populous white dominion, but they wouldn't be able to pull the focus from Britain unless the home isles get Blitzed to hell and back.

Could the colonies expand west? Sure, but not from sea to shining sea.

Who stops them? Lousiana would be taken in any war with France. If gold is found in california - and it will - american settlers will rush there. Britain can beat up a Mexico even more easily than OTL USA if a conflict arises. Sure it could turn out differently than OTL but some factors are already in place that make a much different outcome in North America unlikely.

As for the USA becoming the centre of the Empire:
An american dominion would gain independence very shortly as they are too big and too rich to be content to follow Londons lead for long. The only way Britain can maintain its rule over the USA is if they create an Imperial federation. And as North America is leaving the home islands more and more behind in terms of population the balance of power will shift there. Im not sure if they would move the Capital but if the Empire retains control of North America the center of it will be there.
 
Dont unite the colonies and it could be managable for a pretty long time if u dont treat them like shit u did in otl or actually try to compromise when the extent of the unrest in america is felt on the run up to arw in the 1770-s.

Or if u do unite colonies ,then never ever into very big ones , my guess would be regional blocs at best would be best and each region would have things they can focus on. Americans really underestimate how big a deal the no western expansion was the reason for the revolution since the central goverment actually kept their treatys with the indians since they thought it was all tyranny.
 
But if they had America they basicaly would've control of all the american manpower. They could use american born british to colonize Africa and Asia.

I don't think that would be realistic. Americans would demand autonomy (if not independence) and refuse to be sent to other continents.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The 13 colonies were not united, same with remaining BNA colonies. They only united due to threat of USA. So the British would not be advocating any United BNA anytime soon. The distances, varying economic interests and local political interests would make a United BNA very unlikely.

Look at the union of the 13 colonies after independence, that almost did not happen same with the dominion of Canada there was a lot of resistance by some parties.

too many people are making unrealistic assumptions about a united BNA. When a movement to unite several colonies does arise it would only be in the mid 19th century and would be done by likewise colonies.

as for conquest of west, there is no guarantee that Spain /France would be defeated. A stronger a Britain would result in more defensive and even allied France and Spain.

as for BNA citizens moving westward that would happen but they need to respect native areas since Britain would work to establish peace in the frontier by granting Land grants to these tribes.

also neither France or Spain be welcoming BNA settlers and in most cases send them back.
 
The whole of the Louisiana purchase territory was utterly indefensible against Anglo settlers. New Hampshire alone had a greater population than the entire area and most of the Louisiana population was centred in New Orleans . Unless the British colonial authorities enforced the border you would have exactly the same situation as what happened in Texas in the 1820's and 1830's.
 
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Femto

Banned
I don't think that would be realistic. Americans would demand autonomy (if not independence) and refuse to be sent to other continents.
Not sent, they would've the opportunity. I didn't make myself clear. Adventurous Americans could go to India and Africa and some settlers could go to Australia.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The whole of the Louisiana purchase territory was utterly indefensible against Anglo settlers. New Hampshire alone had a greater population than the entire area and most of the Louisiana population was centred in New Orleans . Unless the British colonial authorities enforced the border you would have exactly the same situation as what happened in Texas in the 1820's and 1830's.
But you are quoting figures from iOTL. There is no indication that from 1775-1800 without ARW and British citizens moving westward that either french or Spanish or combined would not of acted differently in both Florida and in Louisiana.
 

Femto

Banned
But you are quoting figures from iOTL. There is no indication that from 1775-1800 without ARW and British citizens moving westward that either french or Spanish or combined would not of acted differently in both Florida and in Louisiana.
Isn't that they wouldn't try to act, is that they didn't have the manpower and infrastructure to react in that place. Can the French populate the Louisiana Territory in any meaningful capacity in thirty years if they had a different policy? I doubt.
 
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The 13 colonies were not united, same with remaining BNA colonies. They only united due to threat of USA. So the British would not be advocating any United BNA anytime soon. The distances, varying economic interests and local political interests would make a United BNA very unlikely.

Look at the union of the 13 colonies after independence, that almost did not happen same with the dominion of Canada there was a lot of resistance by some parties.

too many people are making unrealistic assumptions about a united BNA. When a movement to unite several colonies does arise it would only be in the mid 19th century and would be done by likewise colonies.

as for conquest of west, there is no guarantee that Spain /France would be defeated. A stronger a Britain would result in more defensive and even allied France and Spain.

as for BNA citizens moving westward that would happen but they need to respect native areas since Britain would work to establish peace in the frontier by granting Land grants to these tribes.

also neither France or Spain be welcoming BNA settlers and in most cases send them back.


Spain lost Mexico, and almost all their mainland possessions by 1821. No ARW means Florida is still British. By 1800 New Orleans was becoming a live issue. How do the French reinforce, or supply New Orleans in the face of Anglo/American Sea Power? Mexico invited American settlers to immigrate to Texas, because it was largely unpopulated, by Europeans. The terms were the settlers convert to Catholicism, swear an oath to Mexico, and keep no slaves. The Texicans, (A blending of Mexicans, Indians, and Anglo settlers.) would have semi autonomous rule under the Constitution of 1824.

As a Dominion of the Empire settlers will push into Indian land no matter what a British Treaty said. An Andrew Jackson, and William Henry Harrison will arrive on the seen, raise militia, and do their thing. They won't need any Redcoats, they'll do it themselves, The RCMP were able to keep good relations with the Indians in Canada because there wasn't such a huge population surge on the frontier. In 1800 there were 2 American state west of the Appalachian Mountains, with a population of 386,000 people. In 1820 there were 8 states with a population of 2,216,000 people. No Indian Tribe, or the French were going to stop that flood.

What would make you think a Franco/Spanish Alliance wouldn't take the same beating they took at sea in every war since the War of the Spanish Succession? In all those wars the allies lost colonies, had their commerce disrupted, their fleets were defeated, and their ports blockaded. They might have won a great victory in 1779, but allowed the opportunity to pass. They consistently missed opportunities to attack the British, and only fought when they felt they had no choice. the British on the other hand were daring, and almost always seized the initiative, attacking whenever they had a chance. It would take a lot for the Alliance to turn that around.
 
You could have a political realignment occur during the Napoleonic Wars that sees the British giving up on ousting Napoleon being feasible and instead commit to containing him, and commit to trading outside of Europe or through smuggling proxies. So they can expand on what they did IOTL where they seized other European colonies such as the Cape and Indonesia, but go for it wholesale. You can spin political ideology at the time to make it sound as though they're doing this for containment and revenge; seeking to build a coalition of extra-European colonies capable of giving Britain the muscle to crack France, but the facade can quickly fade to the reality that they're really just doing it because they can. Especially if the French manage to defeat Russia and overrun all of Europe, the Ottoman Empire's Balkan possessions included. So let's check off the to-do list:

*They start with all of North America bar Mexico, that's a good base to conquer the rest of North America from. This'll be the longterm work horse of the Empire in demographics and will be critical in the early years to man the Royal Navy when it's trying to contain the French in the Mediterranean
*They have the naval supremacy to regularly raze any buildup of ships from Europe. See: Denmark. They should and they will, in all likelihood
*They can seize the entire Dutch colonial empire with relative ease from the New World to Japan; the Dutch colonies are hardly populous and they did it IOTL anyways
*French colonies are sparse and can be seized with no repercussions. As for France's conquests, they'll almost certainly gun for Russia and the Ottoman Empire, but actually controlling such vast stretches of land will prove impossible with the resources they have to work with. They'll get bogged down in the steppe, northern Russia, and the Balkans
*British intervention can keep France bottled at Constantinople indefinitely and turn the Ottoman Empire into a client state in one swoop. They can use 'Ottoman' jurisdiction to subjugate North Africa and Arabia. Very loose control, but economic domination is assured as the British need somewhere to dump their manufactured goods and they're as close to friendly as it gets to the British isles
*The British are NOT ending slavery any time soon in a scenario where they're already under severe economic strain and they control the entirety of the South and the Caribbean; expect full suzerainty of the West African coast and the exportation of Africa slavery to more parts of the world that are suited to it
*India ironically enough is likely to be more politically autonomous as the British will be stretched everywhere else and content to have their loose domination of the subcontinent intact
*Iran is going to be a high priority client state to maintain a strong force in the Caucasus mountains alongside the Ottomans. I'd expect a lot of economic interest from the British in Mesopotamia and the Levant as it's the midway between Britain and India and also the key chokepoint in containing France(though France north of the Caucasus is going to be spending a good amount of time with paper thin control). Imagine a far, far wealthier Middle East as the key to trade between East and West and for supplying the Royal Navy's anti-French Mediterranean forces
*Portugal's exiled Brazilian kingdom + colonies is almost certainly a client
*Latin America is messy but I don't think the British will invest much into keeping control of the region so much as ensuring that any French-aligned European states stay out. American manpower is going to be very helpful here, and the British may conquer parts of this region anyways like they tried to IOTL *cough*Rio de La Plata*cough*. But priorities, and a need to not go bankrupt is going to stop anything too ambitious(IMO)

I'd imagine that anything further east than India would be very low priority so long as the French are kicked out and their entire scope of focus shifts from East Asian trade to having the Britain-To-Gibraltar-To-Malta-To-Konstantiniyye-To-India daisy chain going strong to encircle France. This could lead to a natural progression of affairs for the world where Europe becomes far more focused on railways and coastal towns decline, whereas Britain becomes committed even more so to trade by sea, the completion of a Suez Canal, etc. and ends up either directly or indirectly dominating four to five continents(NA, SA, Africa, Australia, West Asia) given enough time for their new economic and political model to take root
1. Why would the British give up on ousting Napoleon?
2. Taking the Dutch colonies was not a problem as OTL, I'll give you that
3. Why would France overrun everything for the British?
4. How are they going to beat Russia on land? Napoleon tried but failed miserably?
5. How are the British going to turn the Ottoman Empire in a client state? Is Constantinople falls, the Ottoman Empire falls. The Ottomans in 1807-1808 were in no state to be turned into a client state. The governors of various provinces would refuse any pro-British demands, like they refused the reforms. Also, Neither the British or the French would have enough resources to subjugate the entire Empire and with Russia allowing it. If Russia can be beaten? See point 4. If Napoleon or any French ruler will do it? See point 3. Subjugating North Africa is not difficult yet not easy as well. In the sense of, taking the Coastal towns but that's it. France conquered Algiers in 1830 and only secured the small parts behind the coastal towns in the early 1850s. That's almost 20 years.
6. How are the British going to divide their resources in subjugating Mesopotamia AND Levant AND North Africa? That's plain impossible especially with their wars against the Maratha Confederacy by the EIC.

I am tired of reading. This seems like a plan someone has when playing Europa Universalis IV or Victoria II. It is not realistic. Not even the slightest bit. Most of the European and American Nations were not like the Zulu to subjugate with ease. Especially when you consider that France does most of the work in bringing down a European power like Russia.
 
But you are quoting figures from iOTL. There is no indication that from 1775-1800 without ARW and British citizens moving westward that either french or Spanish or combined would not of acted differently in both Florida and in Louisiana.

In 1775 Florida is British, they gave it back to Spain in the Treaty that ended the ARW. No ARW Florida stays under British control.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Spain lost Mexico, and almost all their mainland possessions by 1821. No ARW means Florida is still British. By 1800 New Orleans was becoming a live issue. How do the French reinforce, or supply New Orleans in the face of Anglo/American Sea Power? Mexico invited American settlers to immigrate to Texas, because it was largely unpopulated, by Europeans. The terms were the settlers convert to Catholicism, swear an oath to Mexico, and keep no slaves. The Texicans, (A blending of Mexicans, Indians, and Anglo settlers.) would have semi autonomous rule under the Constitution of 1824.

As a Dominion of the Empire settlers will push into Indian land no matter what a British Treaty said. An Andrew Jackson, and William Henry Harrison will arrive on the seen, raise militia, and do their thing. They won't need any Redcoats, they'll do it themselves, The RCMP were able to keep good relations with the Indians in Canada because there wasn't such a huge population surge on the frontier. In 1800 there were 2 American state west of the Appalachian Mountains, with a population of 386,000 people. In 1820 there were 8 states with a population of 2,216,000 people. No Indian Tribe, or the French were going to stop that flood.

What would make you think a Franco/Spanish Alliance wouldn't take the same beating they took at sea in every war since the War of the Spanish Succession? In all those wars the allies lost colonies, had their commerce disrupted, their fleets were defeated, and their ports blockaded. They might have won a great victory in 1779, but allowed the opportunity to pass. They consistently missed opportunities to attack the British, and only fought when they felt they had no choice. the British on the other hand were daring, and almost always seized the initiative, attacking whenever they had a chance. It would take a lot for the Alliance to turn that around.
First there would be no dominion till mid 19th century at earliest. The British would keep the colonies separate like they did with the 13 colonies and later with rest of British colonies.

there is no guarantee that there would be war of independence by Brazil or Spanish colonies. These took stock and ideas from US. Without US as example their independence movement be seriously delayed.

Spain would not welcome British citizens to settle in its territory so those that attempt to cross be sent back.

I keep saying please stop using iotl as example of what would happen. The immigration into the US would not be a rapid. 90% would be from British isles with few German Protestants mixed in. Nothing like iotl to US.

Europeans not going to be attracted to BNA like they were to USA. Therefore pressure on Spanish and French possession be less.

lastly unlike iotl a capture of Louisiana might be negated in treaty it Britain looses say Minorca, Gibraltar or part of India and decides that territory more important. It would return the captured French/Spanish land for what it considers more strategic territory for the empire regardless of local interests. (This happen with Canada) so it will happen here.
 

Lusitania

Donor
One last thing Napoleon had ideas for Louisiana as settler colony and no reason another leader in 1790s no do same. Plus no Napoleon wars means hundred of thousand of French settlers and soldiers be available
 
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