HMS Princess Royal - A cheap and cheerful upgrade

[johnboy]

I have been thinking about this for a little while for inclusion in a future timeline. Yes, I am aware that the ship SHOULD be scrapped at Washington signing, but let's just assume it's not. She was almost sold in 1920, after all and could have been sold to another power. She was in better condition than her sister. Reason does not matter - I can incorporate that in a T.L easily enough. I just wanted to get people' thoughts on a poor man's upgrade. There is no way she is worth a full rebuild.

That being the case, could an upgrade similar to this occur, namely

• removal of 4 inch case-mates
• conversion from mixed to oil firing, obviously with new boilers. Likely approximate new horsepower circa 90,000, which should give a speed of 29 knots
• Funnels trunked into two
• secondary armament 6 inch guns salvaged from scrapped Birmingham Class cruisers, aside from one 6 inch twin, itself a spare
• updated AA fit
• fire control upgrades

Something like this:

Again, thoughts? Interested in getting what people think would be an approximate cost for such an adventure, as well.

 

[YYJ]

The Shipbucket art you posted also shows the Q turret deleted and replaced by what looks like a hanger and catapult for some Supermarine Walruses. That would give even more room for machinery.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

I had a vague idea floating around that Java and Sumatra were not laid down and after WWI the Netherlands looked for something larger than a cruiser to form the core of the DEI fleet...maybe concerned about the IJN? Britain was certainly considering selling off some older ships before the Washington treaty.

 

[naraic]

Not sure you want to delete a 13.5 inch gun. You may need to though if you are replacing 4 inch guns with 6 inch guns and adding an anti aircraft set up.

 

[Korlan]

the replacement of the boilers by oil fired boilers and the increase of engine power from 70000 to 90000 hp is not going to be cheap, easy or fast.

It will require to cut open the armored decks to access the engineering spaces, and then rebuild those decks after boiler replacement.

At least a year in the shipyard, maybe 2.


In addition, there is the question of : what will be the consequences of the Brits keeping that ship on the WNT ?

You will have to carefully consider what concessions the other naval powers are going to get if the Brits are allowed to keep more of their 13.5" gun ships.
It will be very difficult to balance in order to get a compromise acceptable to all of the signatories.

 

[jsb]

That being the case, could an upgrade similar to this occur, namely

• removal of 4 inch case-mates
• conversion from mixed to oil firing, obviously with new boilers. Likely approximate new horsepower circa 90,000, which should give a speed of 29 knots
• Funnels trunked into two
• secondary armament 6 inch guns salvaged from scrapped Birmingham Class cruisers, aside from one 6 inch twin, itself a spare
• updated AA fit
• fire control upgrades

Why?

The removal of the Q mount only makes sense for a very large rebuild with a full engine rebuild, but that has huge costs and is very questionable value? (and 6 guns are maybe questionable?)

6" secondarily are fine, but I would not bother with, at least the twin its far too expensive to be worth it? Just maybe old 6" low angle singles and the 4" guns on AA HA mounts?

 

[federermod]

What did Britain gain from the WNT because it seems like not being able to evolve their fleet on their own terms cost them money and power and shipbuilding capability? The idea that there was no risk of war with the US instead of being an argument for the treaty should have been an argument against. Let them build Wilson's 50 battleships...

 

[Count of Crisco]

Well in terms of nations most likely to buy I can see the rough following options.

The Dutch take the chance to nab a capital unit. Maybe Japan tries or does something but they may go for it if they feel the need.

Chile may take her as replacement for their second BB, Almirante Cochrane, that Britain requisitioned in 1914 for eventual conversion to Eagle.

Maybe Spain if they can get a deal, would be worth scrapping one or two Espana class to free up funds I would argue.

 

[Count of Crisco]

What did Britain gain from the WNT because it seems like not being able to evolve their fleet on their own terms cost them money and power and shipbuilding capability? The idea that there was no risk of war with the US instead of being an argument for the treaty should have been an argument against. Let them build Wilson's 50 battleships...

The British could claim a decade and a half of relative global peace at a minimum of spending, preventing a naval arms race right after a massive global war, and a major security boost for their empire.

The treaty was not perfect for the British, the US made sure of that. And HM government did it's level best to maintain its traditional role of being the biggest threat to long term British security and economic prosperity by ignoring the signs that the system was falling apart until it was practically written large in the sky and shouted in the streets. But overall it was a very good thing for the British.

 

[jsb]

What did Britain gain from the WNT

They and US got to save money. (at least for next 15 years)

The real issue is not WNT it's 1LNT and the replacement holiday extension....

 

[Count of Crisco]

They and US got to save money. (at least for next 15 years)

The real issue is not WNT it's 1LNT and the replacement holiday extension....

And for the British the government deciding that a treaty meant they didn't have to build nearly enough as they thought they did as there wouldn't be a war.

 

[johnboy]

the replacement of the boilers by oil fired boilers and the increase of engine power from 70000 to 90000 hp is not going to be cheap, easy or fast.

It will require to cut open the armored decks to access the engineering spaces, and then rebuild those decks after boiler replacement.

At least a year in the shipyard, maybe 2.


In addition, there is the question of : what will be the consequences of the Brits keeping that ship on the WNT ?

You will have to carefully consider what concessions the other naval powers are going to get if the Brits are allowed to keep more of their 13.5" gun ships.
It will be very difficult to balance in order to get a compromise acceptable to all of the signatories.

I was never intending the British keep it. I’m talking about it being sold to another power and kept

 

[duckie]

Could be even after the Washington Treaty. The Britsh did a proper upgrade, but have to get rid of her because of the treaty. By selling her and other ships to the Dutch Navy (no allies or colony/dominion) they can get some of the expense of the upgrade back .

 

[Korlan]

I was never intending the British keep it. I’m talking about it being sold to another power and kept

The WNT explicitly forbid the signatories to sell existing warships to third parties. (Article XVIII of the treaty)

Existing ships that could not be kept by the signatories had to be scrapped.

To have HMS Princess Royal be sold to the Dutch, it would require a few changes in the treaty, and the US will not allow the Brits to make that change without a few major concessions, as this article was specifically aimed at the Brits, to prevent "requisitions" like the ones that happened in 1914.

 

[johnboy]

The WNT explicitly forbid the signatories to sell existing warships to third parties. (Article XVIII of the treaty)
View attachment 762344

Existing ships that could not be kept by the signatories had to be scrapped.

To have HMS Princess Royal be sold to the Dutch, it would require a few changes in the treaty, and the US will not allow the Brits to make that change without a few major concessions, as this article was specifically aimed at the Brits, to prevent "requisitions" like the ones that happened in 1914.

Princes Royal was on the sale list prior to the WNT even being considered. A sale fell through for her in 1920

 

[Korlan]

OK, plausible, but it would need the sale to be made (and the ship actually transfered to it's new owner) before negotiations for the WNT start in november 1921.

That leaves very little time for a modernization (nov 1918 - nov 1921), and considering the time required to build the machinery before installing it, I'm not sure the modernization considered is likely.

Or were the boilers intended for the cancelled Revenges available ?
If so, such a modernization seems possible, but I think that if it was the case, the Brits would use the boilers to modernize HMS Lion instead.

 

[steamboy]

It would be plausable, very expensive but plausable, and I assume that whilst you're ripping out the main deck to get at the engines and turn them into oil burners and remove the number of boilers, you're probably going to thicken said main deck.

The removal of Q turret is also a bit of a bugger as you have to remove the barbette too and this is a major undertaking. Any such rebuild/reconstruction needed, would probably put it out of the price range of quite a few countries but you could probably offer it to the Netherlands. But yeah, as people said, make sure you get the money and negotiations are done BEFORE Washington comes into effect.

 

[dmg86]

Or maybe allow each nation in the treaty to do something similar but only once ?

 

[jsb]

That leaves very little time for a modernization (nov 1918 - nov 1921), and considering the time required to build the machinery before installing it, I'm not sure the modernization considered is likely.

It could be modernized after the sale perfectly legally... other powers might not be super happy about it, but the wording of the WNT did not stop people from working on other nation's existing warships.

If sold to the Dutch in 1919/20 it could be rebuilt in 33-36 like the QEs but unlikely to lose the Q mount IMO.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

[Minor edit]
A possible "simple" rebuild? Princess Royal is sold to the Netherlands ahead of the WNT. Part of the deal is that she is rebuilt to oil fired propulsion. She becomes the core of a DEI "fleet in being", supported by destroyers and submarines. In the early thirties she is upgraded with Dutch 120mm secondaries and Bofors AAA and at the same time the conning tower is removed and the bridge superstructure enlarged. In the mid to late thirties a supporting class of 3-4 "Flotilla Leaders" (OTL Tromp and Jacob van Heemskerck design) are built.
ITTL Java and Sumatra were never laid down and the Princess Royal (Prinses Royal?) and Tromp class cruisers replace both these and OTL interwar construction.