Hindu Afghanistan

Will a India and Afghanistan be better off without Islamic conquests?

  • Better

    Votes: 57 86.4%

  • Worse

    Votes: 9 13.6%
  • Total voters
    66

Srihari14

Banned
Gloss said:
Why? It's unclear if Turks would all convert as early as they did IOTL, especially if you butterfly away the reason why Afghanistan was conquered, the Saffarids. Also most of Eastern Afghanistan is well placed geographically to survive long term.
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yes Hindukush is a natural boundary
 

Srihari14

Banned
Koprulu Mustafa Pasha said:
The Best I see for a Hindu Afghan State to survive the Islamic Conquest is in Kabul, Ghazni, so Eastern Afghanistan with Bamyan as the border. That is without the Sassanids. Enough natural borders but not sure how long it will survive. Max to 1200 AD I guess.
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You think it will be conquered eventually
 

Srihari14

Banned
samcster94 said:
I actually voted "worse" given Islam actually might have helped it trade-wise. Afghanistan's modern issues long postdate Islam(it had plenty of good centuries being Muslim).
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It had plenty of centuries being Hindu/Buddhist/Zunist/Zoroastrian as well and was still thriving
 

Srihari14

Banned
Shahrasayr said:
@OP Guy who was writing that timeline here.

The prime way to stop the Islamic conquest of Afghanistan would be for the Shahi dynasty to have retained more of the Kushan administrative framework and adopted more of their Steppe method of warfare and thus not have allowed themselves to have been simply made into a ‘first among equals’ in the quadruple of Afghan kingdoms. Kalhana notes that the Turks not only posed a problem for the Afghans but also the Arab Emirs of Multan who entered an alliance with the Afghans.

Prior to this King Jayapala had already been defeated by Sebuktigin at the Battle of Peshawar due to a lack of preparation, letting the Turks get away with minimal casualties. However at the Battle of Chach Jayapala’s son, Anandapala, was very close to inflicting defeat upon the Turks and retaking Peshawar so if Sebuktigin is denied a decisive victory by Jayapala he loses the manpower he needs for anything but defending the citadel of Ghazni.

As for the immediate ramifications of a Hindu Afghanistan? For the next two centuries the greater Persia region is denied the economic wealth it gained from the raids into India. The Turkic sultanates were able to fund the construction of many monuments and pieces of artwork via the loot they gained from their conquest and raids which gave employment and patronage to Persian artisans. It prevents the proliferation of Persian style culture into the sub-continent alongside Islam, which has repercussions as the post-conquest stratification of society that let the destabilised and disappearing Varna system become reactionary and morph into a caste system.
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Afghanistan would probably develop a seige mentality due to constant warfare

also your timeline was really good, why did you stop it?
 
Ivoshafen

Ivoshafen

Srihari14 said:
You are right, however, alot of ancient universities and Architecture were wiped out by Islamic Invasions, Buddhism literally became extinct in India due to Islamic invasions in India
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I'm not arguing against those facts, but what I am arguing is the original point of the poll. Despite the actual knowledge that would be saved, it's impossible to tell with a POD that far back if the region would be better off or worse off due to the butterflies. Honestly, most PODs effecting the region could cause the very concept of Afghanistan - which is already a very shaky concept mind you - to fall apart utterly. The nation was formed by having its borders forged by the conquests' of its neighbors, it thrived when it fought with its back against the wall (Hindu Kush) in order to become something meaningful (Late Afghan Empire)

I can't argue for India, but what I am saying is that the basic concept of the poll is flawed.
 

Srihari14

Banned
Ivoshafen said:
I'm not arguing against those facts, but what I am arguing is the original point of the poll. Despite the actual knowledge that would be saved, it's impossible to tell with a POD that far back if the region would be better off or worse off due to the butterflies. Honestly, most PODs effecting the region could cause the very concept of Afghanistan - which is already a very shaky concept mind you - to fall apart utterly. The nation was formed by having its borders forged by the conquests' of its neighbors, it thrived when it fought with its back against the wall (Hindu Kush) in order to become something meaningful (Late Afghan Empire)

I can't argue for India, but what I am saying is that the basic concept of the poll is flawed.
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Thats your Opinion, But Afghanistan and especially Buddhism really suffered due to Islamic conquests, In India, Delhi Sultanates really destroyed Alot of Buddhist and Hindu Temples and Universities
either way, what changes do you think will happen with a permanent Hindu Population in Afghanistan?
 

Srihari14

Banned
Intransigent Southerner said:
Delhi sultan and especially Mughal rule is usually considered to have been beneficial for the South Asian economy.
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depends, they did destroy alot of Indian architecture and were responsible for accelerating the demise of Buddhism in India, all in all, Islamic periods were not the best periods for India
 

Intransigent Southerner

Srihari14 said:
they did destroy alot of Indian architecture
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Hindu rulers destroyed each other's temples regularly. Recent research suggests that Turkic iconoclasm in South Asia wasn't really different: making a political statement about how weak the enemy was.

Srihari14 said:
were responsible for accelerating the demise of Buddhism in India
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Buddhism in India was already declining.

Srihari14 said:
Islamic periods were not the best periods for India
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It certainly was for the Indian economy, for which the trans-regional integration provided by the Delhi sultans and the Mughals proved significantly beneficial.
 

Srihari14

Banned
Intransigent Southerner said:
Hindu rulers destroyed each other's temples regularly. Recent research suggests that Turkic iconoclasm in South Asia wasn't really different: making a political statement about how weak the enemy was.


Buddhism in India was already declining.


It certainly was for the Indian economy, for which the trans-regional integration provided by the Delhi sultans and the Mughals proved significantly beneficial.
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That is True to some extent, however, keep in Mind that there are no real holy sites for Hindus in Afghanistan and Pakistan, result of Islamic Invasions

And Islam accelerated the process

it is no unreasonable to assume a Pan Indian empire could have done the same

Either way, what do you think of a Hindu Afghanistan and India
 

Srihari14

Banned
samcster94 said:
I imagine it looking more like India with some Nepal thrown in.
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that would be true, It would comprise of Eastern Afghanistan, be more or less Hindu and have a history of warrior kingdoms like Nepal due to constant Islamic Invasions, Indian history will also be very different
 

samcster94

Banned
Srihari14 said:
that would be true, It would comprise of Eastern Afghanistan, be more or less Hindu and have a history of warrior kingdoms like Nepal due to constant Islamic Invasions, Indian history will also be very different
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Indeed. Hinduism is very different than Islam in the societies it creates(for better or worse) given Islam has no caste system.
 

Srihari14

Banned
samcster94 said:
Indeed. Hinduism is very different than Islam in the societies it creates(for better or worse) given Islam has no caste system.
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yes that would be true, without Caste system Afghanistan will not be as good, however millions of Indian Muslims still suffer from caste system from upper caste Muslims
I am more interested in the History of India and Afghanistan without Islamic invasions
 
CHKeeley

CHKeeley

I agree with @Ivoshafen, I voted yes on principle that regions are likely better off without being conquered when they can avoid it, but religion really has nothing to do with how “well off” they’ll be. A Hindu Afghanistan would face pretty much any number of threats that a Muslim one would. Swapping religions doesn’t do much with a PoD all the way back to the 7th and 8th centuries.
 
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