Hindu Afghanistan

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Srihari14, Aug 16, 2018.

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Will a India and Afghanistan be better off without Islamic conquests?

  1. Better

    41 vote(s)
    83.7%
  2. Worse

    8 vote(s)
    16.3%
  1. Srihari14 Banned

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    Recently while browsing through AlternateHistory.Com, I came across an Old timeline which is incomplete called Khybar Ghati : A Kabul Shahi TL, This got me wondering, what would a Hindu Afghanistan look like?

    Let's say for simplicity's sake, Kabul Shahi are able to repel Islamic Invasions either by themselves or by allying with the greater powers of Indian Subcontinent (Like it happened in OTL Later)

    What will be the Impact on both Afghanistan and India, the battle that would be fought between Arabs and Indians would be seen similarly to Battle of Tours and will have similar impact

    How Different would Afghans and India be? The Pod is after the Birth of Islam
     
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  2. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    Islamic Rule over Afghanistan is hard to stop if Persia is in Islamic rule. India might repel it but not Afghanistan. Especially when Turkic Tribes kick in.
     
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  3. Ivoshafen Just A Man From Gondor - Recovering from SATS

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    In response to the poll above, the issues Afghanistan face are caused by modern post World War One politics, with a POD that far back there is no telling about how the world would pan out.

    I don't think it's fair to give the assumption on if it could be better or worse, but I personally think a religion flop is a lazy way of trying to solve those problems.
     
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  4. Gloss Well-Known Member

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    Why? It's unclear if Turks would all convert as early as they did IOTL, especially if you butterfly away the reason why Afghanistan was conquered, the Saffarids. Also most of Eastern Afghanistan is well placed geographically to survive long term.
     
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  5. catalfalque Wandering Historian

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    Yes, turn Persia rather than India into the religious battleground then Afghanistan being on the edge of that can go the way you say
     
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  6. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    If the Islamic Caliphate (Umayyads, Abbassids) still rule Persia, so as east as Khorasan and Merv they still have access to Central Asia and the Turks living there. Considering Islam is as much as a missionary religion as Christianity that still gives a likely scenario of Turks converting. In OTL as Muslims Turks felt even more to Invade India from Afghanistan. In this TL India is replaced by Afghanistan.

    If the Sassanids survive the Islamic Conquest making the Zagros Mountains the border between Persia and the Caliphate I could see Hindu (eastern) Afghanistan survive. But not if Persia has fallen to Islamic Rule. The drive to the East exists as the Natural Borders a la Caucasus, Zagros and the Indus River are not there in Afghanistan. There are mountains but not on the level of the former I mentioned.
     
  7. Gloss Well-Known Member

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    The Hindu Kush is deiniftely a natural border more than the Indus River ever could be.

    Turks are not destined to conquer everything the lay their hands to, especially considering the various factors that allowed intervention in India wouldn't be the same.

    Just an earlier Abbassid collapse would allow a secure long term border in the middle of Afghanistan with the Arabs probably losing Sindh as well.
     
  8. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    The Abbasids could not even hold Persia for 70 years, they lost it immediately to native but Islamic rulers. How would that change that?

    The Turks aren't destined to conquer everything I have never said that... But they won't stay on the other side in Uzbekistan and watch how Afghanistan develops in such a nice country. It does not work like that. The Hindu Kush does not cover all of Northern Afghanistan. With regards to that the Indus river is better of a natural border.
     
  9. Gloss Well-Known Member

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    A complete collapse I mean, it would change things a lot if the process is accelerated, it would change the dynamics with the Turks, as a lot of Central Asia was not yet converted(the population anyway) and states like the Kara Khanids could not convert as well.

    It's not the case that the Afghan would just stay there to be conquered either, considering that the Hindu Kush stayed more or less the border between Muslim and non-Muslim states as long as the Hindu river(the northern part anyway) was I wouldn't discount the survival of Afghan kingdoms.
     
  10. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    The Best I see for a Hindu Afghan State to survive the Islamic Conquest is in Kabul, Ghazni, so Eastern Afghanistan with Bamyan as the border. That is without the Sassanids. Enough natural borders but not sure how long it will survive. Max to 1200 AD I guess.
     
  11. Gloss Well-Known Member

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    I seriously don't get why you think Islam is destined to expand this direction, especially your confidence in giving even precise date, what's the logical process behind it? You could reasonably have Islam decline during this period for a reason or another, be it Byzantine resurgence, infighting, rebellions and at this point even non Islamic nomads causing problems.
     
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  12. Byzantion Well-Known Member

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    Nuristan was sort of proto Hinduist region labeled Kaffirstan until 1896. Then conquered by the Emirate of Afghanistan anderen forcefully converted.
     
  13. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

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    I am saying is even when the Arabs lost control of Persia less than 200 years and while most of the lands was Zoroastrian Islamic States were created regardless. If they exist they will expand as all other states of their time did but in their case against what they consider as infidels. There is no major natural barrier like the Zagros Mountains. I also don't get why you think that Post-Sassanids Islamic States will not expand in that direction because there is nothing major that stops them hence my idea that a Hindu Afghanistan can exist but without the Islamic Invasion of Persia.

    And what you said, the weakening happened. The Rashiduns faced Civil war, the Umayyads were ousted from Syria, Abbasids fought out Civil Wars, had the Zanj Rebellion, lost Persia to locals while Islam was not even dominant in the region. Hell even the Byzantines smashed the Abbasids in the early 10th century as well as Turkic Tribes wrecking Persia around the same time. Whatever catastrophe you can think off happened.

    I still stand by what I say: Hindu Afghanistan can exists but with the missionary and expansion drifted Islamic Caliphate on the other side of the Zagros Mountains, thus with an existing Sassanid Persia and staying on their side of the Zagros Mountains.
     
  14. Gloss Well-Known Member

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    I think @John7755 يوحنا can do a better job describing how an earlier Abbassid collapse at Samarra could affect the relationship of the Turks with Islam and the Saffarid expansion in Afghanistan.
     
  15. Mightyboosh5 Well-Known Member

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    Obligatory Zunist post
     
  16. samcster94 Well-Known Member

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    I actually voted "worse" given Islam actually might have helped it trade-wise. Afghanistan's modern issues long postdate Islam(it had plenty of good centuries being Muslim).
     
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  17. Ivoshafen Just A Man From Gondor - Recovering from SATS

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    COUGHAGREEDCOUGH
     
  18. Shahrasayr The Emperor of Dune

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    @OP Guy who was writing that timeline here.

    The prime way to stop the Islamic conquest of Afghanistan would be for the Shahi dynasty to have retained more of the Kushan administrative framework and adopted more of their Steppe method of warfare and thus not have allowed themselves to have been simply made into a ‘first among equals’ in the quadruple of Afghan kingdoms. Kalhana notes that the Turks not only posed a problem for the Afghans but also the Arab Emirs of Multan who entered an alliance with the Afghans.

    Prior to this King Jayapala had already been defeated by Sebuktigin at the Battle of Peshawar due to a lack of preparation, letting the Turks get away with minimal casualties. However at the Battle of Chach Jayapala’s son, Anandapala, was very close to inflicting defeat upon the Turks and retaking Peshawar so if Sebuktigin is denied a decisive victory by Jayapala he loses the manpower he needs for anything but defending the citadel of Ghazni.

    As for the immediate ramifications of a Hindu Afghanistan? For the next two centuries the greater Persia region is denied the economic wealth it gained from the raids into India. The Turkic sultanates were able to fund the construction of many monuments and pieces of artwork via the loot they gained from their conquest and raids which gave employment and patronage to Persian artisans. It prevents the proliferation of Persian style culture into the sub-continent alongside Islam, which has repercussions as the post-conquest stratification of society that let the destabilised and disappearing Varna system become reactionary and morph into a caste system.
     
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  19. Srihari14 Banned

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    thus you say once persia became Islamic, Afghanistan was to follow suit
     
  20. Srihari14 Banned

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    You are right, however, alot of ancient universities and Architecture were wiped out by Islamic Invasions, Buddhism literally became extinct in India due to Islamic invasions in India
     
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