Highly underused PODs with great potential

[MNP]

I often get the feeling that many of the TLs on this site aren't too radically different from our own. It's good in the sense of producing timelines with a lot of detail and in-depth analysis and lots to discuss because everything is strangely familiar, but some PODs are simply brushed off as producing too many butterflies to work with. Why not take a wild stab every now and again and work backwards with the aim of increasing the realism?

I've said a few times but here's one reason: If you change things to much or they go on to long, you have fictional people doing fictional things in fictional places that only superficially are relatable It's not easy to keep things interesting over the long term. You can do it, but you have to really plot things out. Not every TL is Isaac's Empire.

Your last sentence I don't understand. Work backwards? You mean start with a huge different setting and figure out how it happened? We do that a lot.

That said a lot of the PoDs in this thread were incorporated into the outlines of my own TL a long time ago...

 

[Rush Tarquin]

Your last sentence I don't understand. Work backwards? You mean start with a huge different setting and figure out how it happened? We do that a lot.

I guess we do. Usually as a thought exercise rather than as a more involved timeline, but I guess that's where your quite valid point about 'fictional people doing fictional things in fictional places' come in.

I've just been playing Red Alert 3 so I guess I'm currently in a mood for more fantastic (read campy) settings.

 

[Joke Insurance]

Heavy British, French, Dutch, American, Italian, German, Russian, Belgian, Swedish and Danish immigration to all their colonies respectively during their colonial reigns.

 

[Yinglong Fujun]

Another culture that gets no love: The Manju.

What if Nurhaci and his immediate descendents found a strong Jin Dynasty and Manchurian Empire?

Take the above definition (plus Sakhalin) as a start point, then perhaps chunks of Mongolia, part of Hebei and the whole of Korea?

Obvious question that follows that: What becomes of China with no Qing Dynasty?

Further, what becomes of Japan? Possible conquest by the Jin? Or perhaps closer ties to the west to purchase weapons capable of deterring Jin invasion?

What of the Jin themselves? Extensive trade with the west to keep the Russians out OR extensive trade with Russia to protect their own sphere of influence in the far eat AGAINST the west?

Compared to later Jin, I would like to see more TLs dealing with their ancestors who sat north of Song before the Mongol invasion. In the eyes of contemporaries, they had much more potential than these Manchus who had been reduced to part nomads afterwards. Later Jin really had their incredible stroke of luck to flourish and conquer the mammoth that was previously Ming even when it was decaying. Just the climate factor were one big godsend to them, as if the OTL was a Manchu wank

And if the Manchus had not catched the opportunity of climate-induced social problems in China, I doubt if the central government in China would allow such a "disturbance" inside their Nurkan region for any extended time.

Ming, or any central gov't in charge of the China proper would have the manpower while the Manchu at the time didn't, IOTL Manchus relied heavily on the surrendered people to do the job against their compatriots during their conquest. Comparing the odds, I find the previous Jin doing better would have been a more plausible outcome than having powers in the China proper to sit and look at their NE neighbor grow, or even allow them to conquer Japan. Either they go the Qing way, or they remain nomadic like IOTL before.

 

[Old Airman]

I know, I just want to see a larger russian Empire but I couldn't think of any other way to do it

There're easier ways to wank Russian Empire (pretty wanked as it was IOTL):
1. Ivan the Terrible (or his son) becomes king of PLC. PLC slowly integrated into *Russia (it would be a very different country).
2. Russia annexes Northern Iranian provinces, turning Caspian sea into it's internal lake.
3. Russia gets more of Eastern Armenia (fate of up to half of OTL Turkey might be discussed).
4. Russia annexes more of what we know today as Northern China and Chinese Turkestan (everything North of Harbin is up for grabs in late 19th century, as well as good chunk of Xinjiang)

 

[Emperor Norton I]

How about a no-atom bomb WW2 scenario that doesn't end with a Yellow Terror fueled kagillion person slaughter in Japan to end WW2? I don't think I've ever seen that which I why I wanna do it myself if I find the time.

 

[Sigma7]

Compared to later Jin, I would like to see more TLs dealing with their ancestors who sat north of Song before the Mongol invasion. In the eyes of contemporaries, they had much more potential than these Manchus who had been reduced to part nomads afterwards. Later Jin really had their incredible stroke of luck to flourish and conquer the mammoth that was previously Ming even when it was decaying. Just the climate factor were one big godsend to them, as if the OTL was a Manchu wank

And if the Manchus had not catched the opportunity of climate-induced social problems in China, I doubt if the central government in China would allow such a "disturbance" inside their Nurkan region for any extended time.

Ming, or any central gov't in charge of the China proper would have the manpower while the Manchu at the time didn't, IOTL Manchus relied heavily on the surrendered people to do the job against their compatriots during their conquest. Comparing the odds, I find the previous Jin doing better would have been a more plausible outcome than having powers in the China proper to sit and look at their NE neighbor grow, or even allow them to conquer Japan. Either they go the Qing way, or they remain nomadic like IOTL before.

Actually, after a quick perusal, that's actually a more intriguing POD, especially since it possesses the possibility of butterflying away the Mongol period.

Perhaps, as a POD, The Jinn attack The Khan's army immediately at Fox hill, rather than sending out a messenger who pretty much sells out the Jinn positions and force strength to the Mongols.

Looking for good material on the war between the Jinn and Mongols, but aside from Genghis Khan being there, so were Jebe, Muqali and Ogedei.

The loss of one or more of those generals, or Genghis himself, would have a major impact on the whole of human history itself, not just the fortunes of the Jinn.

The capture of Jebe, Muqali or, later on in the war, Subotai could have an even greater impact. For example, what if a captured Jebe could have been turned?

You present a far better POD than I did for a Manju-wank, or not even so much a wank but a plausible altered history with a massive ripple effect.

Russia and The Middle East alone, spared the Mongol ravages, would produce a far different world than the one we live in.

What would a dominant and lasting Jinn Dynasty have had on East Asia?

So many endless possibilities.

Perhaps if they'd just recognized that there's a time to attack rather than send a messenger...

 

[Petike]

The nominalists outweigh the realists in influence during the scholastic period of medieval philosophy.

The first university of the Kingdom of Hungary is founded already during the reign of the Anjou dynasty (Louis I. the Great, to be more specific).

Tobacco, potatoes and tomatoes are discovered earlier/later or (in ASB cases) never evolve at all.

More than 30 000 years ago, an early Cro-Magnon chieftan gets drunk and leads his people en masse toward the Americas instead of central Asia and Europe (where the Neandertals live happily ever after for several more millenia than in OTL).

Buddy Holly doesn't die in a plane crash and Elvis doesn't join the army.

The most recent ice age lasts until the present day.

Gustav II. Adolf of Sweden doesn't die in the Battle of Breitenfeld.

Percy Pilcher becomes the first aviator acknowledged to really fly in a steerable aircraft. (Or some other guy : Samuel P. Langley, Clément Ader, etc.)

The tribes of Old Hungarians are not defeated in the Battle of Lechfeld, keep rampaging for a few more decades and settle in much more western parts of Europe.

The Great Migration of the 4. and 5. century AD occurs earlier/later.

Beagle 2 is succesful.

Paper/silk/gunpowder is discovered earlier/later/elsewhere.

Islam becomes the new religion of Rurikid Russia instead of Orthodox Christianity.

The Sepoy Rebellion in India is more succesful and the subcontinet becomes independent from the British already in the 19. century (OK, bit of a wank and with the threat of immediate balkanisation into smaller empires and states).

Alternate versions of arts and architectural styles. Or at least alternate names for them, e.g. : "Cistercic" instead of the Michelangelo-coined "Gothic"...

 

[Sean Mulligan]

Have the Roman Emperor Julian live longer.

 

[NKVD]

The Congressional Apportionment Amendment being ratified with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

 

[Valdemar II]

Frederik VII producing a son. With Frederik unable to produce a heir it created a legitime excuse for Schleswig-Holsteinian seperatism. That may see like a small result but with no legitime reason for their rebellion. The German states may be unable to find excuse for supporting the Schleswig-Holsteinians. As result they may stay out of the war or only join in support of Federalism. As result we won't see the war of 1864, which lead to 1866. While Prussia may find another excuse, this may push the battle over dominance of Germany decades out in the future, or it may end in France taking on Prussia before that happening "forcing" Austria to join in the Franco-Prussian War. Resulting in a Grossdeutsch unification, with a weaker Prussia and in de facto union with Denmark, Galicia, Hungary and Croatia.

Or it may just go down as in OTL with a few different players.

 

[Chrispi]

Here's one: Constantine's losing the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, and the mayhem that results!

 

[Plumber]

No Sykes-Picot Agreement, and Faisal becomes King of Greater Syria (OTL Levant and Iraq, and maybe Hejaz since Faisal's dad was king there). Or a surviving Kingdom of Hejaz.

A more boring one would be the UAE including Qatar and Bahrain like it was intended to.

The Saudis are overthrown in a pan-Arab coup.

 

[Petike]

Korean War, Thirty Years War and Great Northern War related PODs. Nuff' said.

EDIT : And besides these, central European PODs - with the exception of Poland, which already has a surprisingly great presence in many TLs.

 

[Tom_B]

Mohammed has a son would have great potential

Mongol Japan seems underused IMHO

Elihu Root as US president is underused

Pancho Villa wins Battle of Celaya

Lockhart Plot succeeds

As a cultural POD Mozart lives much longer

 

[Iserlohn]

Here is a POD which I have never seen here:

Charles Friedrich of Jülich-Cleves-Berg doesn't die from smallpox during his Grand Tour near Rome in 1575, resulting in an aversion of the War of the Jülich succession, which ultimately results in Brandenburg/Prussia not becoming the dominant German state.

 

[Petike]

Here is a POD which I have never seen here:

Charles Friedrich of Jülich-Cleves-Berg doesn't die from smallpox during his Grand Tour near Rome in 1575, resulting in an aversion of the War of the Jülich succession, which ultimately results in Brandenburg/Prussia not becoming the dominant German state.

Now that's a really intriguing one.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Pyrrhus of Epirus (modern Albania) enjoys more success in his wars, and manages to consolidate his conquests in Italy (including sacking Rome), Sicily (captures Lilybeaum) and Macedonia by 272 BCE.

 

[imperialaquila]

Korean War, Thirty Years War and Great Northern War related PODs. Nuff' said.

EDIT : And besides these, central European PODs - with the exception of Poland, which already has a surprisingly great presence in many TLs.

Agreed. Thirty Years' War, especially. That may be due the fact that it's so damn complicated, though.

 

[Bulls Run]

How about some of these...

German Phillipine Islands after the Spanish American War.

Prinz Heinrich becomes Kaiser instead of Wilhelm II.

Germans concentrate on long range cruisers and pioneer aircraft carriers not battleships and dreadnaughts. (Goes along with the previous)

France challenges the British Grand Fleet with a naval arms race pre 1914.

Jackson survives Chancellorsville, Lee does not (heart attack).

Grant commands in the East, McClellen in the West.

Lexington and Enterprise find the Kido Butai after second wave at Pearl Harbor.

British forces surrender at Dunkirk.

Patton lives. (This would be really interesting with Hairog's "World War III in May 1946" timeline)

Ernst Röhm German Führer.

Pacific Fleet stays in San Diego.