Sorry for another one on Henry VIII, but I've never seen anything like this before. WI: He has at least 2 more daughters by Catherine of Aragon, who survive. Would they be forced to marry Protestants, especially when Edward VI comes to power, and what would their relationship with Elizabeth be?
Henry VIII
- Thread starter el t
- Start date
unlikely if they're both like Mary good luck forcing ether, any ways King Henry VIII showed little interest in marring off ether of his OTL daughters, I doubt adding another one would change that, there Brother King Edward VI is unlikely to want a challenge in the form of his sisters married and with heirs, given his age and questions of who the rightful heir of Henry VIII is, he liked his sisters unmarried and childless, made him as the boy number one.
I think it would still be more likely to see him, as the firstborn of Ferdinand I, marrying a Spanish cousin like IOTL (you know, all those concerns of them to keep the inheritance in the family).
BTW, looking at the dates that Catherine of Aragon gave birth, it seems more likely that any sister of Mary would actually be older than her. Before Mary the queen had four pregnancies, against only one after Mary.
If I recall correctly, we already had a subject similar to this one once. It was about Catherine of Aragon giving Mary two sisters before Henry VIII choosed to divorce her. Can't remember what we said on the subject though...
Anyway, if Catherine were to be more successful in giving birth (Mary was her only surviving child out of six pregnancies), maybe Henry VIII could be tempted to divorce her later in hopes she would finally be giving birth to the son he longs for (she gave birth to two OTL, but they lived only a few days). Of course, if all she can give him are daughters, he'll probably loose patience and seek to divorce her in the end (which will lead to the creation of the Church of England if everything goes OTL).
Forced marriage for his daughters don't seem likely in my eyes, unless Henry VIII thinks it can give him a strong ally. However, OTL, Mary and Elizabeth remained unmarried throuhought their fathers' reign. Of course, with two more daughters, he might think of marriage to secure alliance, at least for the younger ones (who have technically less chances of getting the throne).
What is more interesting in my eyes is what this implies on the succession. With two more daughters born of Catherine of Aragon, this will have consequences on Henry VIII's will.
OTL, he wished to be succeeded by his son Edward, then by Mary and finally by Elizabeth (and that's how it went). This will have no consequences on Edward VI's position, but if Catherine gave birth to two more daughters, they would be included, relocating Elizabeth to the fifth position in the order of succession for sure. As for Mary, her position will depend on when her two sisters are born :
-If the two of them are younger, Mary will stay as number 2
-If the one of them is older, Mary will be ranked as number 3
-If the two are older, Mary will be ranked as number 4
And in those conditions, it would be interesting to see how those two more daughters turn out to be... Getting two carbon copies of "Bloody" Mary is possible if they are treated the same way and remain Catholic, but that's only one of the many scenarios.
Anyway, if Catherine were to be more successful in giving birth (Mary was her only surviving child out of six pregnancies), maybe Henry VIII could be tempted to divorce her later in hopes she would finally be giving birth to the son he longs for (she gave birth to two OTL, but they lived only a few days). Of course, if all she can give him are daughters, he'll probably loose patience and seek to divorce her in the end (which will lead to the creation of the Church of England if everything goes OTL).
Forced marriage for his daughters don't seem likely in my eyes, unless Henry VIII thinks it can give him a strong ally. However, OTL, Mary and Elizabeth remained unmarried throuhought their fathers' reign. Of course, with two more daughters, he might think of marriage to secure alliance, at least for the younger ones (who have technically less chances of getting the throne).
What is more interesting in my eyes is what this implies on the succession. With two more daughters born of Catherine of Aragon, this will have consequences on Henry VIII's will.
OTL, he wished to be succeeded by his son Edward, then by Mary and finally by Elizabeth (and that's how it went). This will have no consequences on Edward VI's position, but if Catherine gave birth to two more daughters, they would be included, relocating Elizabeth to the fifth position in the order of succession for sure. As for Mary, her position will depend on when her two sisters are born :
-If the two of them are younger, Mary will stay as number 2
-If the one of them is older, Mary will be ranked as number 3
-If the two are older, Mary will be ranked as number 4
And in those conditions, it would be interesting to see how those two more daughters turn out to be... Getting two carbon copies of "Bloody" Mary is possible if they are treated the same way and remain Catholic, but that's only one of the many scenarios.
Just a thought: IOTL the first time that Catherine of Aragon gave birth was in 1510. Mary was born only in 1516. IOTL, in 1522, when she was only 6, she was engaged to Charles V, who was 22. But the Emperor didn't want to wait for a so long time before he could marry her, and so he broke off the agreement and married in 1526 Isabella of Portugal.
However, if Henry VIII had a daughter born in 1510 then she would be 16 in 1526, and probably Charles V could have married her. If they have a son (that would be the king of Spain) he would have the highest claim to the English throne.
However, if Henry VIII had a daughter born in 1510 then she would be 16 in 1526, and probably Charles V could have married her. If they have a son (that would be the king of Spain) he would have the highest claim to the English throne.
I guess that whoever is king of France in such a TL, he will suffer a stroke, once the news reaches him that the king of 'Spain' has inherited England.
Furthermore this is an interesting thought, although another candidate would have been the other Mary Tudor, Henry VIII's sister, if she would have stayed betrothed Charles V or if she doesn't marry the king of France. In any case Charles wanted a heir (like every monarch) and IOTL he couldn't afford to wait, but a daughter born in 1510 could work. IIRC there are correspondences between Charles and his aunt and also his sister, regarding the age at which one of his (female) relatives could marry, which led to him postponing it a bit, but not as much as his (female) relatives would have wanted.
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I guess that whoever is king of France in such a TL, he suffer a stroke, once the news reaches him that the king of 'Spain' has inherited England.
Well, he probably would support whoever is against the rule of the "Spanish tyrant" in England.
Gonzaga said:Well, he probably would support whoever is against the rule of the "Spanish tyrant" in England.
Or the French get their own candidate for the English throne. Considering Henry VIII's policies to maintain a balance of power, it could be possible that he marries another of his daughters (since he would have several in this scenario) to a French prince.
Besides, OTL, Catherine de Medici tried to secure an alliance with England against the Hapsburgs by marrying Elizabeth to a French prince : she tried with the future Henri III during the reign of his brother Charles IX, then Henry of Navarra (future Henri IV) and lastly Francis of Alençon, her youngest son.
There is also Mary Stuart that the French could support, but with Henry VIII having more children, her chances of getting the throne have decreased.
Anyway, Charles V having a claim on England wouldn't go well with other European powers... It would be one more step towards a "Universal Monarchy".
Why not go absolutely insane and have FIVE daughters of Henry VIII and Catherine survive. Their first child, a girl born prematurely in 1510, being born to full turn would possibly throw off the timing of the other pregnanices, so let's have this one die but after that:
Mary, born in 1511
Elizabeth, 1513
Catherine, 1514
Margaret, 1516, Which would be OTL's Mary
Anne, 1518
What would Henry do with so many daughters?
Mary, born in 1511
Elizabeth, 1513
Catherine, 1514
Margaret, 1516, Which would be OTL's Mary
Anne, 1518
What would Henry do with so many daughters?
That would be because Elizabeth was 13 when Henry died, and Mary had been banished from court when her mother was divorced - Henry barely even acknowledged her really, he certainly wasn't going to want her married off and living in comfort with a man she could influence against him - especially a foreign person. Of course Henry showed no interest in marrying either daughter. Under other circumstances, he would have.
He would get crazy thinking at how much he would spend in their downries.
Seriously, maybe the fact that all the children survived (despite the fact they are all female) may make Henry to not divorce from Catherine (unless some lady as Anne Boleyn convince the king that she would give him a son). Also, the more daughters he has, the higher is the probability that one of them would get married and have children.
Actually Henry did consider marrying off his daughters - prior to the annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon - Mary was betrothed to both Charles V, the Dauphin, Henry Duke of Orleans and Francis I of France throughout the 1520s - with her illegitimacy that of course changed but offers were still received and made for her throughout the late 30s early 40s.
As to Elizabeth - she was of course declared illegitimate at a much younger age - she was also as the younger daughter much less highly prized - however Henry proposed that she marry the Earl of Arran during the 1540s who in default of Mary Stuart was the heir to the Scots throne - there were also a couple of suggestions/offers during Mary I's reign.
Mary was restored to Henry's favour during the Seymour marriage (she stood as godmother to Prince Edward - she was rarely out of favour from that time and enjoyed control of her own household which was run on Royal lines and at Royal expense). Mary enjoyed a good relationship with Jane Seymour and Anne of Cleves - Elizabeth was brought back into favour through Mary's influence - and Henry appears to have found some pleasure in her occassional presence at court - certainly Katherine Parr was the stepmother who took the most interest in Elizabeth...but during the 1540s both Henry's daughters were back in favour and the 'sins' of their mothers forgotten.
As to Elizabeth - she was of course declared illegitimate at a much younger age - she was also as the younger daughter much less highly prized - however Henry proposed that she marry the Earl of Arran during the 1540s who in default of Mary Stuart was the heir to the Scots throne - there were also a couple of suggestions/offers during Mary I's reign.
Mary was restored to Henry's favour during the Seymour marriage (she stood as godmother to Prince Edward - she was rarely out of favour from that time and enjoyed control of her own household which was run on Royal lines and at Royal expense). Mary enjoyed a good relationship with Jane Seymour and Anne of Cleves - Elizabeth was brought back into favour through Mary's influence - and Henry appears to have found some pleasure in her occassional presence at court - certainly Katherine Parr was the stepmother who took the most interest in Elizabeth...but during the 1540s both Henry's daughters were back in favour and the 'sins' of their mothers forgotten.