Would the British government be willing to allow it? Considering the UK's links to Jordan in the Gulf the amount of ill will that the deal would generate would seem to massively outweigh the benefits from selling a few dozen aircraft. It was regional objections which stopped the sale of Challenger tanks to Israel IIRC.
Have the Blackburn Buccaneer be more successful
- Thread starter Fuzzy Dunlop
- Start date
I'd rather use the AN/APQ-148 coupled with the AN/ASN-92 INS from the A-6E. And to top it off, I want the HUD from the A-7E for the pilot. That would make the Buc leathal
Most likely they buy a small number and then – like the Klimov VK-1/Wopen WP-5, or more recently the Sikorsky UH-60 and Harbin Z-20 – reverse engineer it before staring to manufacture cloned copies. I suppose that it does technically fulfil the challenge of the Buccaneer being more successful but it doesn't really benefit Blackburn or the UK.
Buccaneer and it's derivatives were very seen as a RN design. The RAF didn't want an RN design. They only accepted the Buccaneers reluctantly after the cancellation of the TSR.2 The RAAF wanted a faster aircraft than the Buccaneer represented and were warned off the TSR.2 by Mountbatten when he was CIGS. That left either the Mirage IV or the F-111. As Australia was moving closer to the US in the diplomatic world in an effort to have the US improve our chances against Indonesia (they had already say a quite "no!" to Australian entreaties over the Dutch West New Guinea dispute), we ordered the F-111 and a whole raft of other US equipment, including the execrable M60 GPMG.
The Buccaneer was a lovely aircraft with fantastic flight characteristics according to the pilots. It was built to a similar requirement to the A-6 Intruder and in many ways had more potential is ungraded properly. The build number was low and as a result not given the love the same design would have received from the USN for example. 3 times as many A-6 intruder got built in a similar time frame and in 5 main versions. The A-6 was a great aircraft however i myself feel the Buccaneer could have been stretched for better engines, avionics and supersonic speed fairly easily. The problems start when you need a 14,000 lb thrust dry engine the same size or similar to the Spey. The British did not have a suitable engine but the Americans had the F100 series for the F-15 program. So mid 1970's you could have a Buccaneer with an extra %50 thrust on dry and improved performance as a result. A fuselage stretch to allow an internal flir and laser designator would render the tornado irrelevant.
With good internal fuel and an extra 4,000 lb in the bomb bay and a few twin launchers on the wings you could run it as a missile carrier with 4 or 8 Sky Flash.
The problem is the British would not think this way, the guys in the field would but not the higher ups.
With good internal fuel and an extra 4,000 lb in the bomb bay and a few twin launchers on the wings you could run it as a missile carrier with 4 or 8 Sky Flash.
The problem is the British would not think this way, the guys in the field would but not the higher ups.
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Riain
Banned
The Bucc S2 had an 11,000lbs thrust Spey, the Nimrod and Phantom had 12,150lbs thrust (dry) Spey and the TF41 in the A7D/E had 14,500 and 15,000lbs of thrust. Getting more power is easy, I even did a TL where the Buccaneers got new engines and avionics after they'd fought in the Falklands.
The problem with the Buccaneer, and indeed the Lightning is that the British Government would not support the British Aircraft industry believing it more cost effective to provide jobs to Americans than provide them to Britons and clout to the Unions.
Is the main issue with lighting is the landing gear placement i.e. that it stops you loading the wings with hard points on the center of gravity? Lighting had huge amounts of power so it should have been able to take off a long runway with lots of extra weight in drop tanks or even bombs if it could have been modified to carry them, but the landing gear gets in the way.....
The problem is that short production runs as going to be far less effective so GB needs to sell/share with others and concentrate on fewer types (ie joint RAF/FAA etc) to make up volumes, or it's hard to balance the high development costs (both initial preproduction and continued improvement once in service) of advanced systems.
You can balance that against the advantages to HMT of buying locally but if we talk of 211 total aircraft it's hard to match the economics of say the A6 with 693 when you will have similar development costs?
Or 337 Lightings v 1,422 Mirage III or 2,578 starfighters...... Note that even the Saab 35 Draken had 651 built so is it not more that the British Government/British Aircraft industry/RAF/BA was simply building the wrong aircraft to start with?
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Based upon what I wrote about the development of the Buccaneer and Spey in Post 11...
The Buccaneer in RAF Service
Development of the Spey-Buccaneer
ITTL the Spey-powered Buccaneer was announced on 1st January 1959. The aircraft would replace the English Electric Canberra in the Royal Air Force and the Supermarine Scimitar in the Royal Navy. A production contract for 200 aircraft (150 for the RAF and 50 for the RN) was placed in October 1959.
Development of the RB.168 Military Spey began in January 1959 and the engine first ran at the end of March 1960. The last 8 Buccaneer development aircraft were completed with Speys and made their first flights between 2nd January 1961 and 16th December 1961. The first production aircraft flew in January 1962 and deliveries to the RAF and RN began in February 1962.
The rapid development of the Military Spey was possible because BEA decided to buy the "Big Trident" with RB.141 Medway engines. This enabled Rolls Royce to make an earlier start on the RB.168. Furthermore, the Firm was able to concentrate its resources on the military version because development of the Civil Spey (for the Fokker Fellowship and Gulfstream II) did not begin until the early 1960s.
The Buccaneer in Royal Navy Service
All of the 124 production aircraft built for the Royal Navy ITTL were built to Buccaneer S Mk 2 standard.
Why the RAF Bought the Buccaneer and its RAF Service in the 1960s
In the early 1960s, the RAF had a front-line of 24 Valiant tactical bombers in 3 squadrons and 150 Canberras in 16 squadrons. The long-term plan was to replace them with TSR.2s which would not be available until 1968 at the earliest. Therefore, the Spey-Buccaneer was purchased as a stop-gap.
The 150 aircraft ordered in September 1959 replaced the Canberras and Valiants in Bomber Command and RAF Germany. However, the TSR.2 was still cancelled in 1965. This resulted in the ordering of 100 Buccaneers to replace the Canberras in NEAF and FEAF. These aircraft were bought instead of the abortive F-111K order of OTL.
The first Spey-Buccaneer built for the RAF flew before the end of January 1962 and was delivered by the end of February 1962. No. 16 Squadron in Germany received its first Buccaneer in July 1962 and it became operational of the type in February 1963. This was the first of 19 RAF, one RAAF and two RNZAF that had had converted to Buccaneers by the end of 1968.
RAF Germany in the 1970s
At the end of the 1960s IOTL RAF Germany had 11 squadrons of fixed-wing aircraft that consisted of:
IOTL the Canberras and Hunters were replaced by Buccaneers, Harriers and Phantoms in the early 1970s and the Command's order of battle from 1972 until the arrival of the Jaguar was:
IOTL Sepecat Jaguars replaced the Harriers and Phantoms in Nos. 2, 14, 17, 20 and 31 Squadrons in the second half of the 1970s. (The displaced Harriers were used to increase the strengths of Nos. 3 and 4 Squadrons.) ITTL these squadrons were equipped with Buccaneers and they would keep them until the Tornado GR Mk 1 arrived in the 1980s. The 2 Lightning squadrons converted to Phantoms in the second half of the 1970s in both timelines.
No. 18 (Maritime) Group, Strike Command in the 1970s and 1980s
The survivors of the 124 Spey-Buccaneers ordered for the Royal Navy were transferred to the RAF in the 1970s. They were formed into 3 maritime strike squadrons (Nos. 12, 208 and 216) in No. 18 (Maritime) Group of Strike Command. IOTL the Buccaneer's metal fatigue problems led to the premature disbanding of No. 216 Squadron in August 1980. However, the larger number of aircraft that had been built ITTL enabled the squadron to remain in existence until the end of the Cold War.
The Buccaneer in RAF Service
ITTL the Spey-powered Buccaneer was announced on 1st January 1959. The aircraft would replace the English Electric Canberra in the Royal Air Force and the Supermarine Scimitar in the Royal Navy. A production contract for 200 aircraft (150 for the RAF and 50 for the RN) was placed in October 1959.
Development of the RB.168 Military Spey began in January 1959 and the engine first ran at the end of March 1960. The last 8 Buccaneer development aircraft were completed with Speys and made their first flights between 2nd January 1961 and 16th December 1961. The first production aircraft flew in January 1962 and deliveries to the RAF and RN began in February 1962.
The rapid development of the Military Spey was possible because BEA decided to buy the "Big Trident" with RB.141 Medway engines. This enabled Rolls Royce to make an earlier start on the RB.168. Furthermore, the Firm was able to concentrate its resources on the military version because development of the Civil Spey (for the Fokker Fellowship and Gulfstream II) did not begin until the early 1960s.
The Buccaneer in Royal Navy Service
All of the 124 production aircraft built for the Royal Navy ITTL were built to Buccaneer S Mk 2 standard.
- The first production Spey-Buccaneer flew on 23rd January 1962 and was delivered to the Royal Navy on 19th February 1962.
- 6 aircraft were delivered to No. 700Z Flight at RNAS Lossiemouth in March, 1962.
- The first operational squadron, No. 801, formed at Lossiemouth in July 1962 and it embarked on HMS Ark Royal on 20th February 1963.
- The Buccaneer equipped 4 operational FAA squadrons (Nos. 800, 801, 803 and 809) and one training squadron (No. 736).
Why the RAF Bought the Buccaneer and its RAF Service in the 1960s
In the early 1960s, the RAF had a front-line of 24 Valiant tactical bombers in 3 squadrons and 150 Canberras in 16 squadrons. The long-term plan was to replace them with TSR.2s which would not be available until 1968 at the earliest. Therefore, the Spey-Buccaneer was purchased as a stop-gap.
The 150 aircraft ordered in September 1959 replaced the Canberras and Valiants in Bomber Command and RAF Germany. However, the TSR.2 was still cancelled in 1965. This resulted in the ordering of 100 Buccaneers to replace the Canberras in NEAF and FEAF. These aircraft were bought instead of the abortive F-111K order of OTL.
The first Spey-Buccaneer built for the RAF flew before the end of January 1962 and was delivered by the end of February 1962. No. 16 Squadron in Germany received its first Buccaneer in July 1962 and it became operational of the type in February 1963. This was the first of 19 RAF, one RAAF and two RNZAF that had had converted to Buccaneers by the end of 1968.
- The 4 Canberra interdictor squadrons in RAF Germany (Nos. 3, 16, 18 and 213) were converted first.
- The 4 Canberra PR squadrons assigned to RAF Germany (Nos. 17, 31, 39 and 80) were converted second. (No. 39 Squadron was based at Malta in peacetime. It moved to RAF Wyton in September 1970 and disbanded there in June 1982.)
- The 3 Valiant tactical bomber squadrons (Nos. 49, 148 and 207) in Bomber Command were converted third. They were disbanded in 1969. Their place was taken by 7 Vulcan B Mk 2 squadrons (Nos. 9, 27, 35, 44, 50, 101 and 617) that had been replaced in the nuclear deterrent role by the Royal Navy's Polaris submarines.
- The only Canberra squadron in Bomber Command was No. 58 with PR Mk 7s and it was the next squadron to convert to Buccaneers. The squadron disbanded in September 1970.
- The 4 Canberra bomber squadrons (Nos. 6, 32, 45 and 249) of the Akrotiri Strike Wing in Cyprus were converted fifth. IOTL these squadrons disbanded in 1969. They were replaced by 2 Vulcan squadrons (Nos. 9 and 35) which were withdrawn to the UK in 1975 as part of the Mason Defence Review. ITTL the Buccaneers remained at Akrotiri until 1975 when they were disbanded as part of the Mason Defence Review.
- No. 13 Squadron with Canberra PR Mk 9s (which moved from Akrotiri to Malta in September 1965) was the next squadron to convert to the Buccaneer. It moved to Wyton in 1978 and disbanded there in January 1982.
- The last RAF squadrons to convert to the Buccaneer were No. 45 with the Canberra B Mk 15 and No. 81 with the Canberra PR Mk 7. These squadrons were at RAF Tengah in Singapore and were part of FEAF. These squadrons did not operate the Buccaneer for long because they were disbanded in January 1970 as part of the accelerated withdrawal from "East of Suzez".
- The RNZAF had 2 Canberra squadrons (Nos. 14 and 75) that it rotated between RNZAF Ohakea in New Zealand and RAF Tengah in Singapore. The Canberras operated by the squadron at Tengah were borrowed from the RAF. ITTL the RNZAF purchased enough Buccaneers to re-equip the squadron based in New Zealand and the squadron at Tengah was re-equipped with Buccaneers borrowed from the RAF.
- The fourth Canberra squadron in FEAF was No. 2 Squadron, RAAF at Butterworth. This squadron was also re-equipped with Buccaneers borrowed from the RAF.
RAF Germany in the 1970s
At the end of the 1960s IOTL RAF Germany had 11 squadrons of fixed-wing aircraft that consisted of:
- 2 fighter squadrons (Nos. 19 and 92) with Lightning F Mk 2As;
- 4 interdictor squadrons (Nos. 3, 16, 18 and 213) with Canberra B(I) Mk 8s;
- 3 photographic reconnaissance squadrons (Nos. 17, 31 and 80) with the Canberra PR Mk 7. (Plus No. 39 with Canberra PR Mk 9s detached to Malta in peacetime);
- 2 fighter reconnaissance squadrons (Nos. 2 and 79) with the Hunter FR Mk 10s.
IOTL the Canberras and Hunters were replaced by Buccaneers, Harriers and Phantoms in the early 1970s and the Command's order of battle from 1972 until the arrival of the Jaguar was:
- 2 fighter squadrons (Nos. 19 and 92) with Lightning F Mk 2As;
- 2 strike squadrons (Nos. 15 and 16) with Buccaneer S Mk 2s;
- 3 ground attack squadrons (Nos. 14, 17 and 31) with Phantom FGR Mk 2s;
- 3 ground attack squadrons (Nos. 3, 4 and 20) with Harrier GR Mk 1 and 1As;
- 1 reconnaissance squadron (No. 2) with Phantom FGR Mk 2s.
- 2 fighter squadrons (Nos. 19 and 92) with Lightning F Mk 2As;
- 6 strike squadrons (Nos. 14, 15, 16, 17, 20 and 31) with Buccaneer S Mk 2s;
- 2 ground attack squadrons (Nos. 3 and 4) with Harrier GR Mk 1 and 1As;
- 1 reconnaissance squadron (No. 2) with Buccaneer S Mk 2s.
IOTL Sepecat Jaguars replaced the Harriers and Phantoms in Nos. 2, 14, 17, 20 and 31 Squadrons in the second half of the 1970s. (The displaced Harriers were used to increase the strengths of Nos. 3 and 4 Squadrons.) ITTL these squadrons were equipped with Buccaneers and they would keep them until the Tornado GR Mk 1 arrived in the 1980s. The 2 Lightning squadrons converted to Phantoms in the second half of the 1970s in both timelines.
No. 18 (Maritime) Group, Strike Command in the 1970s and 1980s
The survivors of the 124 Spey-Buccaneers ordered for the Royal Navy were transferred to the RAF in the 1970s. They were formed into 3 maritime strike squadrons (Nos. 12, 208 and 216) in No. 18 (Maritime) Group of Strike Command. IOTL the Buccaneer's metal fatigue problems led to the premature disbanding of No. 216 Squadron in August 1980. However, the larger number of aircraft that had been built ITTL enabled the squadron to remain in existence until the end of the Cold War.
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Given the sorry state of both PLAAF finances and the technological backwardness of the PLAAF in the 1970s and 1980s, the earliest they could reasonably reverse engineer it and produce large numbers would be the late 1990s, and the Buccaneer would likely be considered well obsolete by then (the JH-7, which also uses the RR Spey turbofan, only achieved mass production in the late 1990s, and even then China had to license produce the Spey from RR).
Badly! I would imagine. However, the correct question is how does it compare to the PR version of TSR.2 in terms of altitude.
The RAF had 7 Canberra squadrons at the end of March 1964. According to Plan P of 6th March 1964 all but one of these squadrons was to be disbanded or convert to TSR.2s between March 1968 and March 1971.
This is actually possible, albeit somewhat remote. IOTL, the RNZAF standardised on Skyhawks about that time, mainly because they were cheap enough that they could afford a reasonable number and were more-or-less multirole. The Buccaneer is actually a fairly good fit for NZs requirements, and if you can hang Sidewinders on it then it is possible that the RNZAF could standardise on that instead.
Issues to be overcome:
- Price. NZ is willing to spend reasonable sums on acquisition of major platforms, but they're very careful about bang for their buck and getting the longest service possible out of what they buy. If the Buccs are expensive, an orphan fleet, or perceived to be obsolescent soon, this purchase likely won't get made.
- Maintenance. I'm not sure how the A-4 and Bucc compared in this respect, but 2 engines would seem to require more maintenance than 1, which means either more ground staff or reduced flying hours per airframe.
Yes, the Buccaneer could carry Sidewinders. Only one, but I doubt it would be too difficult to modify the wing pylons to carry more.
Riain
Banned
There is nothing about the Buccaneer and Lightning low production and lack of development that is set in stone. As has been said the RN wanted 96 S2s and got 84, South Africa wanted 32 and got 16 and West Germany looked at the Bucc but bought the F104 for anti-shipping strike.
The West Germans looked at both the SR.177 and the Lightning but the British Government representative was telling them NOT to buy the Lightning even though it was in production for the RAF. As for the British, they rejected BAC proposals for Ground Attack versions and converted old Hunter F6 to FGA9/FR10 and the ground attack capability wasn't developed until the export Saudi and Kuwait versions.
The West Germans looked at both the SR.177 and the Lightning but the British Government representative was telling them NOT to buy the Lightning even though it was in production for the RAF. As for the British, they rejected BAC proposals for Ground Attack versions and converted old Hunter F6 to FGA9/FR10 and the ground attack capability wasn't developed until the export Saudi and Kuwait versions.
Attachments
I've decided that it won't work.
I though that the RNZAF had two Canberra squadrons (Nos. 14 and 75) from about 1960 to 1970. That is:
No. 14 Squadron in was in New Zealand with the 9 Canberra B(I) Mk 12 and 2 Canberra T Mk 11 that were purchased in 2 batches in 1958 and 1960.
No. 75 Squadron in Singapore and operating Canberras borrowed free-of-charge from the RAF.
In my post the Canberras in No. 14 Squadrons would be replaced by 12 Buccaneers bought and paid for by New Zealand. They would be delivered in the second half of the 1960s. No. 14 Squadron would operate them until 1970 when it became a training squadron, first with Vampires and after 1972 Strikemasters.
The borrowed Canberras in No. 75 Squadron would be replaced by Buccaneers borrowed from the RAF under the same free-of-charge agreement as the Canberras. These aircraft would also be delivered in the second half of the 1960s. The British withdrawal from "East of Suez" would led to New Zealand withdrawing No. 75 Squadron to New Zealand in 1970 and it would take over No. 14 Squadrons Buccaneers. However, I though the RNZAF might have bought 14 Buccaneers from the RAF in 1968 instead of the 14 Skyhawks and used them to maintain 2 Buccaneer squadrons from 1970.
However, my information was wrong and now I know that it can't be done.
No. 14 Squadron did convert from Vampires to Canberras from October 1959. It regularly participated in FEAF exercises while it was a Canberra squadron and was permanently at Singapore from September 1964 to November 1966. The Canberras were retired in 1970 and it took over No. 75 Squadron's Vampires which in turn were replaced by Strikemasters in 1972.
However, No. 75 Squadron was only based at Tengah until 1961 and the Canberras were hired from the RAF rather than on a free loan. This was because 1961 was a period of financial stringency for New Zealand (according to William Green in Flying Review International, February 1970). Terminating the Canberra Mk 2 hiring agreement and sending No. 75 Squadron home was part of the subsequent defence review. Upon its return to New Zealand the squadron took over the functions of the Bomber Conversion Unit with a pair of 2 Canberra Mk 12s and 2 Canberra Mk 13s. (Eventually, all the Canberras were transferred to No. 14 Squadron, which was reorganised into an operational flight and a training flight.) Another source that I have says that No. 75 Squadron re-equipped on 1st September 1963 with 8 Vampire FB Mk 3 and 4 trainers until the Skyhawks arrived in May 1970. Returning to Green, the Skyhawks (10 A-4K and 4 TA-4K) were purchased in 1968 and were delivered in 1970.
Therefore, the RNZAF can't afford to maintain 2 Buccaneer squadrons in the second half of the 1960s ITTL because it could not afford to maintain 2 Canberra squadrons after 1961 IOTL. It won't be able to buy 12 Buccaneers to re-equip No. 14 Squadron and it won't be able to hire 12 Buccaneers to re-equip No. 75 Squadron.
However, ITTL Nos. 45 and 81 Squadrons, RAF operated Buccaneers from RAF Tengah in Singapore from the late 1960s until January 1970 when they disbanded. These aircraft might be sold to New Zealand in 1968 instead of the Skyhawks and delivered in May 1970. But I doubt that New Zealand could afford to operate these aircraft.
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I'm not that knowledgeable about the RAF of the period. I remember something about the Canberra being the standard electronic warfare plane, similar to the EA-6. If the RAF buys Buccaneers as well, could it become the standard EW plane? Could it be suitable for a "Wild Weasel" role?
Can you get a "Flight of the Intruder" type novel/movie that features the Buccaneer? I like both the Buccaneer and the A-6.
Can you get a "Flight of the Intruder" type novel/movie that features the Buccaneer? I like both the Buccaneer and the A-6.
You could probably adapt the Buccaneer as a E-Warfare/Wild Weasel plane. The bomb bay is spacious and the perfect place to put the electronics gear you need to fit in.
Riain
Banned
I've only seen it once or twice, but the Buccaneer had radar warning receivers on each wingtip and maybe in the nose and tail as well. These were able to get a bearing on radar emissions from enemy warships and home in on them. The Buccaneer was equipped with the radar-homing MARTel missile, although this was more for anti-ship rather than what we'd consider Wild Weasel.
In technical terms the Bucc would make a suitable and maybe fantastic platform for a traditional Wild Weasel; it's big, has 2 seats and plenty of room for bespoke avionics fit-out. However that's not really something the British do, in fact they developed the ALARM ARM specifically so it would work well with non-specialist aircraft like the standard Tornado GR1.