The ‘Vette would stay with Chevy regardless of what GM does with Pontiac, there’s way too much brand equity with that model. Part of the Corvette’s allure is that it’s considered the Blue Collar Man’s Supercar and the Chevy nameplate is part of that image. Not to mention that there likely is no way in heck that the Chevy group within GM would let Pontiac steal their halo car.
Have Pontiac Motor Company continue to be a viable company up to the present
- Thread starter Fuzzy Dunlop
- Start date
They need to do a few things.
1) Stop giving Chevy every single vehicle that GM makes, This would give the other divisions some function.
2) Not use the bankruptcy as a chance to pitch divisions. Pontiac went away because GM wanted to cut its dealerships and in the bank had the chance to do it for free. They kept Chevy because it sold EVERYTHING, the kept Buick (the division that had no real function) because it was popular in China they kept Cadillac because it was the so called flagship. And they pitched the rest.
In reality Buick should have gone as it was squished in between Cadillac and Chevy and still sails from both.
idealky you keep Cadillac for high end Chevy for low end and Pontiac for sporty. Cut back to about 4 models each and put all the picks into GMC and let EVERYONE sell them If the want.
So cars and small suvs and crossovers go to Pontiac, Chevy and Cadillac and big truck based SUVs and Trucks go solely to GMC.
This drastically cuts Chevy but frankly the way GM is now they may as well pitch Buick as a division toss out Cadilac as well and call it what it is Chevy.
1) Stop giving Chevy every single vehicle that GM makes, This would give the other divisions some function.
2) Not use the bankruptcy as a chance to pitch divisions. Pontiac went away because GM wanted to cut its dealerships and in the bank had the chance to do it for free. They kept Chevy because it sold EVERYTHING, the kept Buick (the division that had no real function) because it was popular in China they kept Cadillac because it was the so called flagship. And they pitched the rest.
In reality Buick should have gone as it was squished in between Cadillac and Chevy and still sails from both.
idealky you keep Cadillac for high end Chevy for low end and Pontiac for sporty. Cut back to about 4 models each and put all the picks into GMC and let EVERYONE sell them If the want.
So cars and small suvs and crossovers go to Pontiac, Chevy and Cadillac and big truck based SUVs and Trucks go solely to GMC.
This drastically cuts Chevy but frankly the way GM is now they may as well pitch Buick as a division toss out Cadilac as well and call it what it is Chevy.
This is a very good post, and I agree with it. I always felt the Aurora would have been best as a four-wheel-drive car with the GM Quadrasteer system they were developing by then for the best maneuverability. (Yes it came years after the Aurora but GM was working on it at the time.)
A great rear-wheel-drive platform for Pontiac would be a great benefit for them, if for just the Bonneville and Grand Prix models. I'm not sure making the smaller ones RWD is going to be much of a benefit, but turning the Sunfire into THE car for young enthusiast drivers (maybe make AWD a possibility here too, so you can go Subaru and Evo hunting) and the Grand Am a BMW-hunter, though I'm not quite sure how you'd do that while remaining FWD, may have to go RWD on that car too.
Every vehicle for Pontiac should have a target in addition to the brand's overall identity. The Bonneville should be aiming for the sportiness and sporty-express of the Jaguar XJ at a far lower price, the Grand Prix and Grand Am at the 5 Series and 3 Series BMW, the Sunfire at the Acura Integra or Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution. Other cars should have goals too.
Buick is seen in China as a legitimately prestigious brand due to history. Pontiac wouldn't be able to do that.
Yes, but Buick was introduced into China as a premium brand . Later Chevrolet introduced as a budget brand below market center in 2005
If they decided to compete directly with Volkswagen from the beginning, it would not be impossible for them to choose Pontiac as a mass brand
Being ugly is not so bad. When you ugly you don't have to look at yourself. As long as you can cope with the people who point and laugh.
Fuzzy Dunlop
Banned
Inspired by @PNWKing post: GM buys Hyundai Motors in 1997
A possible timeline. Pontiac start releasing badge engineered Hyundai's
In 2000 Pontiac release a trio of models
The Elantra based G4
The Sonata IV based G8
The Santa Fe based Pathfinder
2002
The Accent based G2
2004
The Tuscan based Safari is released.
The Sonata V based G8 II is released.
2005
The Santa Fe 2 based Pathfinder II
2006
The Elantra IV based G4 II
The Accent III based G2
2009
The Tuscan 2 based Safari II
2010
The Sonata VI/i45 based G8 III is released
2011
The Accent IV based G4 are released
The Elantra V based G6 is launched
2012
The Veloster based Tempest Coupe is launched.
2013
The Santa Fe III based Pathfinder III is launched.
2015
The Sonata VI based G8 IV is launched
2016
The Elantra VI based G6 is launched
The Tuscon II based Safari II is launched
2018
The Accent V based G4 is launched
The Kona based Montana is launched
A possible timeline. Pontiac start releasing badge engineered Hyundai's
In 2000 Pontiac release a trio of models
The Elantra based G4
The Sonata IV based G8
The Santa Fe based Pathfinder
2002
The Accent based G2
2004
The Tuscan based Safari is released.
The Sonata V based G8 II is released.
2005
The Santa Fe 2 based Pathfinder II
2006
The Elantra IV based G4 II
The Accent III based G2
2009
The Tuscan 2 based Safari II
2010
The Sonata VI/i45 based G8 III is released
2011
The Accent IV based G4 are released
The Elantra V based G6 is launched
2012
The Veloster based Tempest Coupe is launched.
2013
The Santa Fe III based Pathfinder III is launched.
2015
The Sonata VI based G8 IV is launched
2016
The Elantra VI based G6 is launched
The Tuscon II based Safari II is launched
2018
The Accent V based G4 is launched
The Kona based Montana is launched
Last edited:
Sorry to necro the thread but I've been thinking about this thread lately. I think the best way to have Pontiac survive is to get back to brand identity rather than rebadging. This allows GM to concentrate on a smaller number of models and avoids the perception of lazy branding. Chevy makes mid-size sedans, minivans, and mid-size SUVs, GMC makes large SUVs and pickups, Buick makes large sedans, Cadillac makes luxury cars, Saturn makes compacts and small SUVs, and Pontiac concentrates on performance cars. No minivans, SUVs (esp. not the Aztek), stodgy sedans, or anything four-cylinder.
Here's a hypothetical early 2000s lineup for Pontiac:
Pontiac Firebird (Discontinue the Camaro)
Corvette (rebadged as a Pontiac - heresy!)
Make the 1999 Pontiac GTO concept car reality
Pontiac Bonneville (V8 only)
Pontiac Sunfire - discontinued (Chevy Cavalier continues to be produced)
Pontiac Grand Prix - discontinued
Pontiac Grand Am - discontinued (Chevy Malibu continues to be produced)
Pontiac Aztek - never produced
Pontiac Montana - discontinued (Chevy Venture continues to be produced)
Avoid the Holden/GTO debacle
Here's a hypothetical early 2000s lineup for Pontiac:
Pontiac Firebird (Discontinue the Camaro)
Corvette (rebadged as a Pontiac - heresy!)
Make the 1999 Pontiac GTO concept car reality
Pontiac Bonneville (V8 only)
Pontiac Sunfire - discontinued (Chevy Cavalier continues to be produced)
Pontiac Grand Prix - discontinued
Pontiac Grand Am - discontinued (Chevy Malibu continues to be produced)
Pontiac Aztek - never produced
Pontiac Montana - discontinued (Chevy Venture continues to be produced)
Avoid the Holden/GTO debacle
marathag
Banned
No way Chevrolet would allow this. Every Division had to bow that the Chevy Corvette would be the highest performance vehicle under the GM Banner- and would always be a Chevy
Buick got slapped down hard over this with the GN, and later with Cadillac.
Really, GM needs to be more rational. The G8 was fantastic car from everything I've heard and read, (based on a Holden, as I recall) and was about to be the new Impala for Chrevrolet when the bankruptcy hit.
GM got too enamored with SUVs and trucks. Understandable, for years they sold every single one they made. Ford is doing the same thing now in the US, no cars outside of the Mustang.
I think a Pontiac with a decent line-up, SUV, sports sedan, sports car and performance SUVs could have been profitable, especially if you throw in a push for all-wheel drive across all platforms.
Throw in a re-badged GT-R as the new Trans Am/Firebird. But the flaming chicken on the hood and Chevy's 'new Camaro' sales evaporate...
I like that idea, and had it myself. Roger Penske was trying to buy Saturn when GM went broke, I was hoping someone like Nissan would come along and rescue Oldsmobile and Pontiac as well.
The Aztek got a bad rap from the US automotive press, especially Car & Driver and Motor Trend. Realize though at the time, most of the staff of both were old farts sitting around fondling themselves while remembering the first time they drove a 1964 1/2 Mustang. And if you think I'm exaggerating, there have been article on exactly that, 'remembering my first drive in a first-year Mustang'.
They could never see that Aztek (with a K) for what it was: A conscious attempt by Pontiac to make an SUV look different
SUVs were (and are) rather cookie-cutter. Tuscons look like Edges, which look like Trax, etc. Go up in size and it's the same thing. Sequoias look like Armadas, which look like...
With the Aztek, Pontiac did something completely different. And for the effort, they were mercilessly dumped-on by the automotive press, which I'm sure hurt sales. They had imagined a minivan as more sporty vehicle with the Trans Sport/Montana. Just because someone drove a minivan didn't mean it had to be boring. They did the same with the SUV, but went even farther with a significant styling change. I recall seeing Azteks on the road and believe me, they looked like no other vehicle out there.
And older relative once said to me that in the '50s, GM products all had the same interior style. All the differences were under the hood and in the styling of the body.
In the 70s that started to change, with GM crossing engines cars undergoing convergent evolution. Under Smith it got to where they were even using the same body panels. GM finally got away from that. but all GM engines are now GM. Little wonder Buick is out of racing. There's nothing unique or exceptional about the cars or their engines outside of the Corvette. In my opinion, badge engineering made GM better. Competition between the badges made things better, which engineers could get the most performance out of a given body style, etc. That's all gone now, and GM is no longer an automotive leader. Coincidence?
I had a '79 Electra that had a Buick 350cid engine, but there were also Electra's built with Oldsmobile's 350cid. As I recall, both Chevy and Pontiac also had 350cid engines of their own at the time.
IIRC when the 25th anniversary Trans Am was built, GM put Buick's amazing 3.8l V-6 under the hood. As I recall, Pontiac engineers felt they were celebrating the anniversary with a 'foreign' engine, not one from Pontiac.
GM can never kill Buick. It's a very popular brand in China, and as I recall, it's something of a status symbol there. They might stop selling them in the US, but the brand will always be around. Funny though; just a few years ago, Buick had no SUVs in its line-up. Now they have no cars...
My thoughts,
I mean it’s not that hard, Pontiac was the sport division of GM, just like Dodge were more sporty than Plymouth (later Chrysler)
Here's a different approach.
Keep John DeLorean in charge. GM executives hate the man but love his work, so maybe they create a deal of some kind where he goes 'independent' with a company owned 35% by GM but run by DeLorean, who turned one GM division into sale strong enough to compete with the whole of Ford at one point.
Keep John DeLorean in charge. GM executives hate the man but love his work, so maybe they create a deal of some kind where he goes 'independent' with a company owned 35% by GM but run by DeLorean, who turned one GM division into sale strong enough to compete with the whole of Ford at one point.
I am not a car guy but from my understanding of the history of General Motors that one of the biggest problems they had was that the executives of the different divisions thought their biggest rivals were not Ford, Chrysler-Dodge-Plymouth but the other divisions.
Growing up in the Seventies I never understood what was the difference between Buick and Oldsmobile, Chevrolet and Pontiac and why it was a big deal.
What would have been better instead of strengthening the Pontiac brand would have been to consolidate the Pontiac line with the Chevy line, get rid of the Oldsmobile division, keep the Opal division because until the Nineties it was making a lot of profit and was keeping GM afloat.
But this is my very ignorant opinion and I will defer to others who are more knowledgeable and will try to learn something.
Growing up in the Seventies I never understood what was the difference between Buick and Oldsmobile, Chevrolet and Pontiac and why it was a big deal.
What would have been better instead of strengthening the Pontiac brand would have been to consolidate the Pontiac line with the Chevy line, get rid of the Oldsmobile division, keep the Opal division because until the Nineties it was making a lot of profit and was keeping GM afloat.
But this is my very ignorant opinion and I will defer to others who are more knowledgeable and will try to learn something.
marathag
Banned
Dodge doing better than Pontiac wasn't the problem, but Olds and Buick, as they were in the same intermediate management structure within GM, and had to fight for resources and funding for future R&D within that group. and then B-O-P group to fight with the rest of GM
You had the other GM Branches, the Chevrolet Assembly Division, that was loosely associated with GMC for light truck line, but not the rest of the line, Cadillac off doing their own thing, and interconnections with Fisher Body and AC Delco
This was all changed in 1969, with the creation of General Motors Assembly Division.
All were under one big corporate roof now, and the start of badge engineering, and the reduction of B-O-P and Chevy uber alles.
That was shuffled aroundthe '80s again with seperat groups, Chevy-Pontiac-GM Canada, and Buick-Olds-Cadillac, though B-O-C had to do whatever Chevy said, like toning down performance that would make the Corvette look bad, after those two tried to edge back into performance, and Fisher Body split up and dissolved
in the '50s and 60s, Chevy was sales leader, Ford #2 the Plymouth, Buick, Olds,Pontiac and then Mercury, with the 3 thru 6 spots flipping around.
The targets to go afterwere Chevy and Ford, as they had the most sales, the it was B-O-P looking at each other, for cannibalistic opportunity, with occasionally Plymouth, making sales on low cost end with stripped down models, and Mercury, for those wanting a slightly nicer Ford
A few things to keep in mind. The Grand Am was for most of its existence the most popular GM produced, Getting rid of it and keeping the Malibu is a really bad idea as you won’t sell enough of the car to bother with and you took the majority of Pontiac sells away from them. Getting rid of the Grand Prix will result in the lose of what was perhaps the best overall Pontiac made the G8. Which was a very nice car.
The key to this mess is two fold. You have to radically cut back Chevy which sold at the time pretty much a version of every car except the Solstice/Sky. And you have to make GM not keep Buick which it did bec of its Chinese market. GM foolishly thought that Buick in. Nina would become huge but the truth is it is just not that big a brand. But GM had visions of making it huge so kept it over Pontiac. But if you look at the numbers at the time it was pretty much a coin toss as to Pontiac vs Buick. The truth is the best thing GM could have done was look at a way to split the markets so each brand had an identity then find a brand that fit its use.
Make Chevy the truck brand with Corvette being its ONLY car. Make Pontiac the sporty brand with sporty cars and crossovers. Make Cadillac the luxury brand and make Saturn the cheep brand. and make Buick (if the must keep it) a China only brand selling rebadged cars from the other brands. And give all dealers the option to sell Chevy as well as whatever else they want. And absolutely 0 cross brand rebadging except in China where the ONLY brand is Buick.
Or alternatively you let each brand stay. Give them two cars each (plus Corvette for Chevy) and make GMC the truck brand. Then each dealer gets two brands of cars and GMC. And you position them as follows. Saturn Entry level. Chevy mid level functionality (plus Corvette) , Pontiac Sporty, Buick Upper level, Cadillac gets Luxury and GMC gets trucks. You get a total of 10 cars plus Corvette and a couple trucks.
But the big problem that GM cant get past is the Chevy does everything. The truth is the best thing for GM is to Call itself Chevy (Buick in China) and pitch the rest out the window. If you look at it historically for most of the last 30+ years 90% of everything they sold was available in one form or another from Chevy. And for most GM brands Chevy was the largest competitor for them.
The key to this mess is two fold. You have to radically cut back Chevy which sold at the time pretty much a version of every car except the Solstice/Sky. And you have to make GM not keep Buick which it did bec of its Chinese market. GM foolishly thought that Buick in. Nina would become huge but the truth is it is just not that big a brand. But GM had visions of making it huge so kept it over Pontiac. But if you look at the numbers at the time it was pretty much a coin toss as to Pontiac vs Buick. The truth is the best thing GM could have done was look at a way to split the markets so each brand had an identity then find a brand that fit its use.
Make Chevy the truck brand with Corvette being its ONLY car. Make Pontiac the sporty brand with sporty cars and crossovers. Make Cadillac the luxury brand and make Saturn the cheep brand. and make Buick (if the must keep it) a China only brand selling rebadged cars from the other brands. And give all dealers the option to sell Chevy as well as whatever else they want. And absolutely 0 cross brand rebadging except in China where the ONLY brand is Buick.
Or alternatively you let each brand stay. Give them two cars each (plus Corvette for Chevy) and make GMC the truck brand. Then each dealer gets two brands of cars and GMC. And you position them as follows. Saturn Entry level. Chevy mid level functionality (plus Corvette) , Pontiac Sporty, Buick Upper level, Cadillac gets Luxury and GMC gets trucks. You get a total of 10 cars plus Corvette and a couple trucks.
But the big problem that GM cant get past is the Chevy does everything. The truth is the best thing for GM is to Call itself Chevy (Buick in China) and pitch the rest out the window. If you look at it historically for most of the last 30+ years 90% of everything they sold was available in one form or another from Chevy. And for most GM brands Chevy was the largest competitor for them.
I've been thinking about your reply, and as I recall Penske was looking for other manufacturers to build cars with a Saturn badge. His attempt fell through when no one would do so. So, to your point, what if Roger went for Pontiac, who already had an outsource car, the Vibe, built by Toyota? I still see Vibes on the road, and they were pretty reliable at the time. Since he's already got his foot in the door with Toyota, maybe he gets Toyota to do some more? Maybe an Avalon as the new Bonneville, a 2-door Camry as the new Grand Prix, a four-door Camry as the new LeMans and a Corolla as a new Grand Am? Throw in a Sienna as a new Montana and a RAV4 as the new Torrent. maybe Penske has a line-up robust enough for him start his own manufacturing in a few years?
Regards,
Last edited: