Have Pontiac Motor Company continue to be a viable company up to the present

[1Big Rich]

Back in 1994 GM tried to build a top of the line sports sedan that could compete with the best Germany could build. They nearly did it with the Oldsmobile Aurora.
It was a great looking car, that anticipated the much admired later Mercedes CLS but was. More practical, had a good engine and a rock solid frame, but was front wheel drive and lacked a manual version.
Later, GM tried to make Pontiac a performance brand, but the cars, while not bad, had front wheel drive, old engines and mostly 4 speed auto boxes for all but the base engines.
Since they clearly where trying to turn Oldsmobile into the Mercedes of GM, they should have made Pontiac the BMW of GM. For that they needed a chassis as good as the Aurora, but with rear wheel drive, bold design, and a manual option for the V8 engine.
in the same way that the Aurora was a near Mercedes S400 for half the cost, Pontiac should have gone for a near BMW 540i for half the cost.

The Aurora was GM's first attempt at seam welding, as opposed to spot welding for a unibody. The Aurora, and its stable mates, the Riviera, Park Avenue, Bonneville, Ninety-Eight and Eighty-Eight. Body rigidity is measured in Hertz, and the Auroras had a rigidity of 25Hz, as I recall. That's in the realm of Mercedes, BMW, Lexus and Infinity sports sedans at the time. It also means the suspension is more dedicated to ride and performance rather than quieting the car due to the natural give (and noise) with spot-welding. The first test of body torsion broke GMs test machine; they had to use one designed for trucks instead.

Regards,

 

[Dilvish]

I've been thinking about your reply, and as I recall Penske was looking for other manufacturers to build cars with a Saturn badge. His attempt fell through when no one would do so. So, to your point, what if Roger went for Pontiac, who already had an outsource car, the Vibe, built by Toyota? I still see Vibes on the road, and they were pretty reliable at the time. Since he's already got his foot in the door with Toyota, maybe he gets Toyota to do some more? Maybe an Avalon as the new Bonneville, a 2-door Camry as the new Grand Prix, a four-door Camry as the new LeMans and a Corolla as a new Grand Am? Throw in a Sienna as a new Montana and a RAV4 as the new Torrent. maybe Penske has a line-up robust enough for him start his own manufacturing in a few years?

Regards,

I like the idea of Penske actually buying Pontiac. Could Penske or Penske with other investors get both Pontiac and Saturn? I remember Saturn having a loyal core of customers and good press. I had a Grand Am in the 1990's, a metallic blue 4-cylinder with a spoiler. A great little car that got totaled a couple of days before it hit 200,000 miles. Thinking of your remarks about the Pontiac Aztek, perhaps an independent Pontiac could get a reputation of designing cars that have a different look.

 

[1Big Rich]

I like the idea of Penske actually buying Pontiac. Could Penske or Penske with other investors get both Pontiac and Saturn? I remember Saturn having a loyal core of customers and good press. I had a Grand Am in the 1990's, a metallic blue 4-cylinder with a spoiler. A great little car that got totaled a couple of days before it hit 200,000 miles. Thinking of your remarks about the Pontiac Aztek, perhaps an independent Pontiac could get a reputation of designing cars that have a different look.

Funny you say that, I saw a Satrun on the road when I was out running errands this morning.

I think both could be a possibility, but I think he went for Saturn because of the loyal customer base and the reputation for quality. If he went back to Saturn's original concept, no haggle selling, plastic bodies eventually (no rust) and an emphasis on quality, I think they could have been spun off for a an independent brand. Getting Pontiac in with that would mean restoring Pontiac's reputation and customer base somewhat, but I would think it's definitely possible....

My thoughts,

 

[AnonymousSauce]

I've been thinking about your reply, and as I recall Penske was looking for other manufacturers to build cars with a Saturn badge. His attempt fell through when no one would do so. So, to your point, what if Roger went for Pontiac, who already had an outsource car, the Vibe, built by Toyota? I still see Vibes on the road, and they were pretty reliable at the time. Since he's already got his foot in the door with Toyota, maybe he gets Toyota to do some more? Maybe an Avalon as the new Bonneville, a 2-door Camry as the new Grand Prix, a four-door Camry as the new LeMans and a Corolla as a new Grand Am? Throw in a Sienna as a new Montana and a RAV4 as the new Torrent. maybe Penske has a line-up robust enough for him start his own manufacturing in a few years?

Regards,

If you want Penske to have his own manufacturing under this scenario then just have him purchase the GM/Toyota NUMMI plant in California along with Pontiac.

I like the idea of Penske actually buying Pontiac. Could Penske or Penske with other investors get both Pontiac and Saturn? I remember Saturn having a loyal core of customers and good press. I had a Grand Am in the 1990's, a metallic blue 4-cylinder with a spoiler. A great little car that got totaled a couple of days before it hit 200,000 miles. Thinking of your remarks about the Pontiac Aztek, perhaps an independent Pontiac could get a reputation of designing cars that have a different look.

If GM goes through with selling Opel to Magna Steyr, then I could see Penske/Opel/Toyota as a mini-version of the Renault/Nissan alliance where Saturn could continue to build all the models that it already had and Pontiac could continue the Solstice alongside whatever it gets from Toyota. Bonus points if GM could convince the joint venture to take on SAAB and save it from its demise.

 

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Loving the stories about Penske, Saturn etc . . . didn't know about this.

 

[marathag]

no haggle selling, plastic bodies eventually (no rust)

The panels were good, but underneath, they were a horrorshow after a decade of Midwestern Winter salted roads

 

[1Big Rich]

The panels were good, but underneath, they were a horrorshow after a decade of Midwestern Winter salted roads

That's true but we could say that about a lot of cars. Galvanizing can only do so much and undercoating has to be maintained.

I enjoy a lot of the restoration/resto-mod shows shown in the US, especially Phantom Works and Counting Cars. Danny Koker of the latter said once, "In the the north (USA) cars rust from the bottom up, in south cars rust from the top down. Out here in the desert (he's in Las Vegas) we're pretty lucky" Or words to that effect.

Regards.

 

[1Big Rich]

I remember Saturn having a loyal core of customers and good press.

Dilvish,
I had a friend who bought an early Saturn. Nice little white wagon as I recall. There was something about the floor mats he wanted, I don't recall if it was an upgrade to a carpeted set or what, but he also told the salesman if he were going to buy the car, he wanted a Saturn ball-cap, as practically everyone at the dealership was wearing one or had one on their desk.

When they finalized the deal the sales manager came over to shake his hand and thank him for buying a Saturn. When the salesman went to get the cap, the sales manager told him "That's coming out of his pocket. With no haggle I can't include it in the price of the car."

I had a Grand Am in the 1990's, a metallic blue 4-cylinder with a spoiler. A great little car that got totaled a couple of days before it hit 200,000 miles. Thinking of your remarks about the Pontiac Aztek, perhaps an independent Pontiac could get a reputation of designing cars that have a different look.

I always liked the look of those cars. Great design from Pontiac, and with plenty of interior space despite being a smaller car.

Regards,

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Could Pontiac survive as a small company that only produces Firebirds?

 

[marathag]

I always liked the look of those cars. Great design from Pontiac, and with plenty of interior space despite being a smaller car.

That was the GM 'N' Body that shared with the Olds Cutlass (redone as the Alero til the end of Oldsmobile) and the Chevy Malibu.
This was a good way to show how Badge Engineering could go, with very distinct vehicles that shared underlying mechanics without looking like cookie cutter kinmates

It replaced the Corsica/Beretta L Body in the US and the 'World' J Body, that was used by Buick, Chevy, Holden, Olds, Opel, Pontiac, and Vauxhall
I think even Daewoo used a version of it for a short time. These didn't do quite a good job of Badge engineering, with limited changes to sheetmetal and interior bits

Could Pontiac survive as a small company that only produces Firebirds?

That's the problem. Pontiac didn't have much left at Lansing that was only Pontiac anymore, they were built in Canada alongside the Camero as the last of the GM 'F' Bodies, that was replaced with Zeta platform from Holden that lasted til the current generation that share with the Cadillac CTS, that was in Lansing, four years after Pontiac was dead

 

[1Big Rich]

So I had my Altima at the mechanics last week and he has a Fiero outside his shop (not sure if it's his or he's working on it. No tags on the car).

But it made me think of @Dilvish and Penske/Pontiac. As I recall, the Fiero was GM's first attempt at plastic body panels, which lead to the Saturn brand using the same. Maybe if Penske goes Saturn + Pontiac, both go to plastic body panels (eventually).

That was the GM 'N' Body that shared with the Olds Cutlass (redone as the Alero til the end of Oldsmobile) and the Chevy Malibu.
This was a good way to show how Badge Engineering could go, with very distinct vehicles that shared underlying mechanics without looking like cookie cutter kinmates

It replaced the Corsica/Beretta L Body in the US and the 'World' J Body, that was used by Buick, Chevy, Holden, Olds, Opel, Pontiac, and Vauxhall
I think even Daewoo used a version of it for a short time. These didn't do quite a good job of Badge engineering, with limited changes to sheetmetal and interior bits

Thanks for that marathag.

You mentioned Cutlass. My dad had a beautiful (black, black landau, beige interior) 1980 with the 260 V-8. I don't think he even put a water pump on it when it was wrecked at 193,000+ miles. All he ever did was change the oil, brakes and tires regularly. The wreck wasn't even his fault. A Mercury went out of control on a snow covered highway and spun into him.

Regards all,