Hannibal ante portas again! A hellenistic era ATL.

Prologue
Welcome to my third ATL attempt!

I first started thinking about continuing my Athenian Hegemony ATL. However, since the beginning of this year a certain POD was always in my mind. What if Antiochus III accepted Hannibal’s proposal and helped him to fight Rome once more?

Prologue

As soon as he found himself at the court of Antiochus, Hannibal began to form new plans for making war against Rome. He proposed that the Seleucid king should raise a force and put it under his charge. He said that if Antiochus would give him a hundred ships and ten thousand men, he would take command of the expedition in person, and he did not doubt that, he should be able to recover his lost ground and once more humble his ancient and formidable enemy. He would go first, he said, with his force to Carthage, to get the co-operation and aid of his countrymen there in his new plans. Then he would make a descent upon Italy, and he had no doubt that he should soon regain the ascendency there which he had formerly held.
Hannibal’s design of going first to Carthage with his Seleucid army was doubtless induced by his desire to put down the party of his enemies there, and to restore power to his adherents and partisans. In order to prepare the way more effectually for this, he sent a secret messenger to Carthage. In OTL this agent failed in his mission. So here comes the POD! In my ATL the agent succeed and this makes Antiochus support Hannibal’s plan.

Rome just before the POD:

In the summer of 194 B.C. the last Roman troops left Greece. The Romans hoped that their settlement of Greek affairs would bring an end to the epidemic of wars which had been the main feature of recent Greek history. The war against Nabis of Sparta was to have been the last.
In the course of the same year, Cato the elder returned to Rome and was rewarded with the honour of a Roman triumph for his achievements in Hispania. At which triumph he exhibited an extraordinary quantity of captured brass, silver, and gold, both coin and ingots
The Battle of Placentia was also fought in 194 BC, against the Boii tribe. The Roman army won the battle.


Seleucid empire just before the POD:

Seleucid armies had campaigned in Thrace in 195 and 194 with some success, but in Asia Minor both Lampsacus and Smyrna still held out. An attempt to arrange an alliance with Rome had failed in 195, so in the winter of 194-3 Antiochus decided to send envoys to Rome. They arrived at the same time as a large number of delegates from the Greek states, in Rome because the Senate was about to work through the details of the peace settlement. This time the Romans simply insisted that he withdraw from Europe. The freedoms of the Greek cities of Asia Minor must also be respected, but the area would be part of the Seleucid sphere of influence. Antiochus’s envoys had no authority to negotiate away his European territories and so the mission ended in failure.

The world just after the pod(similar with OTL):

qu7XICM.jpg


So let’s start! First chapter coming soon!

I would like to thank @cerebus for his great editing and @Achaemenid Rome for his notes!
 
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I know this just started, but I'm very curious as to the composition of the forces that Antiochos is giving Hannibal in this TL. It seems to me like the best Hannibal could do, even given his legendary brilliance, is provide a distraction and give Antiochos free reign in Greece.

Which will definitely change history, to be fair. I assume this TL wasnt written to give Hannibal an anticlimax in his later life, but to see him achieve at least something of note.
 
Dear @Practical Lobster welcome to my new ATL!

I know this just started, but I'm very curious as to the composition of the forces that Antiochos is giving Hannibal in this TL.

I am rather curious also. From my research of the period/Antiochus III i find it hard to give him all he asks. As for the composition of the army, i guess hoplites would be the main source. Some cataphracts cavalry would be handy to Hannibal.

It seems to me like the best Hannibal could do, even given his legendary brilliance, is provide a distraction and give Antiochos free reign in Greece.

Yeap true. A easier expansion to Greece is almost granted for Antiochus III.


I assume this TL wasnt written to give Hannibal an anticlimax in his later life, but to see him achieve at least something of note.

Well this ATL explores a Hannibal second chance. That doesn't mean it's going to be a Hannibal wank.
 
Well I'm certainly interested to see where it goes! I don't know if I've seen this PoD before, so i'm very curious.

By composition I more referred to the origin of the forces. It seems like it might be difficult to convince elements of the royal army to abandon their kingdom and I'm sure Antiochos would be loathe to part with even a fraction of the aristocratic, heavily armored cavalry he could call upon - since the latter Diadokhoi tended to be fascinated with such forces. The increasing interest in expensive, "battle-winning" forces like elephants and scythed chariots was in my opinion a mistake, and one that the Greeks should confront sooner rather than later.

Also, the quicker they can emphasize more flexible soldiers than the phalangites, the better. While I'm a firm believer that the Makedonian phalanx in it's heyday could go toe to toe with the manipular armies, I believe the latter Hellenic phalanx was rather more unwieldy and has a poorer track record. Hoplites (meaning hoplon-bearing soldiers) would be on their way out I believe, replaced by the troops that the Romans rather self-centeredly thought were imitations of their own style, rather than an instance of convergent evolution and the broader eastern mediterranean arms race.

But now I'm rambling.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Some questions regarding the overall situation:

1) How will Hannibal land in Italy a second time (I read that this was his plan) when the Romans control the seas?

2) How do the Seleucids hope to overcome the Roman numeric superiority, given that they have stretched out supply lines?

3) I'm eager to see how Antiochus III uses the Phalanx and the Seleucid cavalry to beat the Roman legions.

4) Most importantly: is it so wise for the Seleucids to become heavily involved into European affairs? The greatest part of their Empire is in Asia, and these territories are always threatened by secession and by the Parthians. For example, Bactria had submitted to Antiochus just a few years earlier, during Antiochus' Anabasis. You could have described them as a vassal on your map. But de facto, they had recovered their independence as soon as the Seleucid troops left.
 
Well I'm certainly interested to see where it goes! I don't know if I've seen this PoD before, so i'm very curious.

I am very curious also. Well i do have a plan in my mind, but the dialogues/analysis in this thread will surely help.

By composition I more referred to the origin of the forces. It seems like it might be difficult to convince elements of the royal army to abandon their kingdom and I'm sure Antiochos would be loathe to part with even a fraction of the aristocratic, heavily armored cavalry he could call upon - since the latter Diadokhoi tended to be fascinated with such forces. The increasing interest in expensive, "battle-winning" forces like elephants and scythed chariots was in my opinion a mistake, and one that the Greeks should confront sooner rather than later.

You are right. Antiochus would probably wont give any elite units. I can see Greek mercenaries and Gauls/Galatians joining the ranks of this army. Hannibal's prestige maybe also attract some young nobles(cataphracts)?

Also, the quicker they can emphasize more flexible soldiers than the phalangites, the better. While I'm a firm believer that the Makedonian phalanx in it's heyday could go toe to toe with the manipular armies, I believe the latter Hellenic phalanx was rather more unwieldy and has a poorer track record. Hoplites (meaning hoplon-bearing soldiers) would be on their way out I believe, replaced by the troops that the Romans rather self-centeredly thought were imitations of their own style, rather than an instance of convergent evolution and the broader eastern mediterranean arms race.

Valid points. I am sure Hannibal is flexible and would adjust his army( actually i am really curious if Hannibal will use cataphracts or any other asiatic units like horse archers in his armies from now on). Cant say the same for Antiochus although...

But now I'm rambling.

:biggrin:;)
 
He said that if Antiochus would give him a hundred ships and ten thousand men,
A bit too much to ask, even for someone famed as Hannibal. Also, his goal is aligned with Antiochus' for now, but Hannibal's fundamental loyalty lies to Carthage (or at least the one ruled by his party). Maybe around half of them.
 

trajen777

Banned
So one thought would be if you had the experience of Hannibal and the resource of the Seleucid empire and you were going to fight Rome again what army would you build ?
 
Dear @G.Washington_Fuckyeah welcome to this ATL :)

1) How will Hannibal land in Italy a second time (I read that this was his plan) when the Romans control the seas?
The ancient sources say that his plan was to march from North Italy to South... I have some ideas in mind. Besides Hannibal will have a Seleucid fleet to support him.

2) How do the Seleucids hope to overcome the Roman numeric superiority, given that they have stretched out supply lines?

That's certainly a issue but Rome was also stretched to a point(constant rebellions in Spain, war with Gauls in North Italy.)

3) I'm eager to see how Antiochus III uses the Phalanx and the Seleucid cavalry to beat the Roman legions.

If he keeps his temperament maybe he have a better chance than OTL. His cavalry is really strong as we seen in OTL.


4) Most importantly: is it so wise for the Seleucids to become heavily involved into European affairs? The greatest part of their Empire is in Asia, and these territories are always threatened by secession and by the Parthians. For example, Bactria had submitted to Antiochus just a few years earlier, during Antiochus' Anabasis. You could have described them as a vassal on your map. But de facto, they had recovered their independence as soon as the Seleucid troops left.

You are right with the map I totally forgot it. I change it already. Antiochus basically began the war with Rome because he could not resist conquering Greece, could not resist the prospect having his name next to Alexander the Great as the king that reunited the empire to its former glory.
 
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A bit too much to ask, even for someone famed as Hannibal. Also, his goal is aligned with Antiochus' for now, but Hannibal's fundamental loyalty lies to Carthage (or at least the one ruled by his party). Maybe around half of them.

Yes I don't think Antiochus will give 10000 troops to Hannibal, but money to recruit mercenaries is really doable. For now this alliance serves both well...
 
YES, YES, YES, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES, finally someone explores Hannibal Pods! I reccommend he gives Hannibal some good cavalry and SIEGE ENGINES, because he must be able to battle the forces of Massinissa if he really wants to regain his powerbase AND he needs to be able to siege Carthage in case things go horribly wrong and in case he sieges Rome. A fleet would also be helpful.

EDIT: After a better look at previously made comments changed my opinion: I defend Hannibal should be given money, too, but also some cavalry and a fleet. He needs something to show power off other than mercenaries. And where will he recruit them? Veterans from Greece and Magna Graecia? Celts from beyond the Po river or, more unlikely, the Alps? Iberians, Corsicans, Sicilians, Lybians and maybe some dissatisfied Numidians too? Maurii, Gaetuli, Garamantii, Nubians, Egyptians, Armenians, Persians, Parthians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Saka, Arabs, Etruscans, Thracians, Paeonians, Macedonians, Daciae, Getae, Swedes, Proto-Norse, Gothii, Proto-Slavs, Frisii, Germans???? (Ok sorry for the exagerations, i just want to get it right whatever the case may be)
 
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trajen777

Banned
So if i was going to build an army from scratch i would utilize the forces that were in existence from Hannibal's experience and the Seleucid army in existence : (above all i would establish the naval arm - already in existence and make sure i had a good communications set up). From there i would advance to Cartage - prepare things then invade Italy (u need to deal with the Numidian empire there as well) with the new force.

Infantry :
1. Build on the legions - shield / Jav / sword (see below on this which was in process)
2. Recruit Liberian spear men (the majority of Hannibal's best infantry in the Punic wars)
3. Archers from the east -- with composite bows
Calvary :
1. Cataracts - Shock heavy cav
2. Lancers to protect the Cataracts flanks (more flexible and lighter armed)
2. Horse archers for ambush - harassment - keeping Roman scouts pinned
3. Numidian horsemen -- great shock and flanking units
4. Camels and Elephants (horses will shy away from them -- to protect flanks from Roman horse)
Support
1. Seige train - engineers - quickly built towers


Notes : Cav ::::
heavily armoured cavalrymen, Cataracts, and horse archers which were used in hit and run style tactics. The eastern style of horse warfare would have a deep impact in the reign of Antiochus III when he armed his heavy cavalry along Parthian lines. However unfortunately for the Seleucids their main rivals, the Romans and Ptolemies, used armies which centered around a core of good infantry. In this sense there was a sense of the overvaluing of cavalry as an offensive arm. Antiochus III was an excellent cavalry commander

Notes -- on Rominized infantry :
n 166 BC, at the Daphne Parade under Antiochus IV, the Argyraspides corps is only seen to be 5,000 strong. However 5,000 troops armed in the Roman fashion are present and they are described as being in the prime of their life, perhaps denoting their elite nature.[11] It is possible that the missing 5,000 men of the Argyraspides were the 5,000 'Romanized' infantry marching alongside them. The training of a segment of the royal guard in "Roman' methods was probably down to several factors. Firstly Antiochus IV had 'spent part of his early life in Rome and had acquired rather an excessive admiration for Rome's power and methods".[12] Secondly the future wars that the Seleucids might be fighting would probably be in the eastern satrapies against mobile enemies and other large areas of land. Training troops in this way would add to the overall efficiency and capability of the army and make it more manoeuvrable. Indeed the 'Romanized' troops are seen facing the Maccabees at the Battle of Beth Zechariah in 162 BC.[13] Thirdly the defeat of the Antigonids at the Battle of Pydna in 168 BC was a great culture shock, showing the complete destruction of the Macedonian military system at the hands of the Roman legion.

It has been suggested that the fact that these 5,000 men are marching at the head of the army was meant to show Antiochus IV's intention of reforming the entire Seleucid army along Roman lines
 
Romanized infantry are something of an anchronistic misnomer. I'd argue they owed more to the Celts and other foes the Hellenic armies faced than the Romans. But that's Wikipedia for you.

Hannibal is very unlikely to get such a wish list army. More plausibly, he'll have to make do with whatever he gets. Antiokhos is hardly poor but he's also a man surrounded by foes.
 
This should be a fun TL. So a Carthage-Seleucid Empire Team Up? First one for the books.

Can't wait to see what happens.

Hello my friend! I hope you enjoy this journey!

So one thought would be if you had the experience of Hannibal and the resource of the Seleucid empire and you were going to fight Rome again what army would you build ?

I am intrigued also.

YES, YES, YES, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES, finally someone explores Hannibal Pods! I reccommend he gives Hannibal some good cavalry and SIEGE ENGINES, because he must be able to battle the forces of Massinissa if he really wants to regain his powerbase AND he needs to be able to siege Carthage in case things go horribly wrong and in case he sieges Rome. A fleet would also be helpful.

EDIT: After a better look at previously made comments changed my opinion: I defend Hannibal should be given money, too, but also some cavalry and a fleet. He needs something to show power off other than mercenaries. And where will he recruit them? Veterans from Greece and Magna Graecia? Celts from beyond the Po river or, more unlikely, the Alps? Iberians, Corsicans, Sicilians, Lybians and maybe some dissatisfied Numidians too? Maurii, Gaetuli, Garamantii, Nubians, Egyptians, Armenians, Persians, Parthians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Saka, Arabs, Etruscans, Thracians, Paeonians, Macedonians, Daciae, Getae, Swedes, Proto-Norse, Gothii, Proto-Slavs, Frisii, Germans???? (Ok sorry for the exagerations, i just want to get it right whatever the case may be)

Welcome!Yes this Pod was a must for me so here we are! For start Hannibal will have to collect from the local pool. He is in Ephesus at the moment.
 

trajen777

Banned
Nice start -- Small core army and lots of $ to raise a merc army -- which is basically when Hannibal always worked with anyway.
50 ships is a pretty small force to attack with however
 
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