Gunpowder Empires, an exhaustive definition and list

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

Typically we consider the Ottoman, Safavid, and Mughal Empires to be the Gunpowder Empires, empowered and emboldened by their ability to manufacture firearms. The Golden Horde is sometimes correctly included.

But could we expand it out and say that Mali was a Gunpowder Empire, just in Africa, with less native firearms capacity and more imported? Or maybe Spain and Portugal, expanding to frontiers across the sea rather than on their borders?

Who else could be in an expanded list?

 

[Deleted member 67076]

If by Mali you mean the Toucouler Empire and the state of Samouri Touri, than you'd be correct. Both had the ability to field, equip, and manufacture mass gunpowder armies.

The Malian Empire proper didn't have acess to guns. Neither did Songhai.

 

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

If by Mali you mean the Toucouler Empire and the state of Samouri Touri, than you'd be correct. Both had the ability to field, equip, and manufacture mass gunpowder armies.

The Malian Empire proper didn't have acess to guns. Neither did Songhai.

Yes, that's the one I'm talking about. Exactly why I started the thread, thank you kindly.

I'm trying to think of ways that the Russians, Spanish and Portuguese resembled the states we normally call gunpowder empires. They were conquering similar opponents, but from different directions. The 'Iberian Gunpowder Empire' across the oceans of the world.

 

[Youngmarshall]

Typically we consider the Ottoman, Safavid, and Mughal Empires to be the Gunpowder Empires, empowered and emboldened by their ability to manufacture firearms.

I've seen Muscovy and Qing routinely added to that list if you're talking about gunpowder empires sweeping aside the steppe nomads.

 

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

I've seen Muscovy and Qing routinely added to that list if you're talking about gunpowder empires sweeping aside the steppe nomads.

Muscovy was what I was thinking. In a way, what Spain and Portugal did, but instead of traversing the Urals and Central Asian desert, they sailed across the sea to find a frontier and less sophisticated states to conquer.

 

[Tanc49]

For Spain, gunpowder had less of an impact, it's more the germs and steel part really.
For Portugal, depends on the definition. Their adversaries were able to man a superior number of canons but their doctrine was lacking.
Especially iin term of naval artillery, before then you only had hand guns on boats, because it's traditionally said that the big States were land powers (Viajayanagar, Bijapur) and didn't care for the sea. Since everybody else was dependent on maritime trade, the only Navy was antipiracy and reduced in size.

Did the Portuguese conquer because of gunpowder use? Yes.
Did they succeed because of their unique ability to field artillery in larger number? No, it was mostly doctrinal

 

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

Based on this reminding me some people count Russia, the Golden Horde, and China as gunpowder empires, they maybe weren't a post-Steppe regime ruling Muslim regions thing exclusively.

The important parts basically were, you would just need some king of 4th gunpowder Empire in the Golden Horde area that takes Central Asia and you are set.

Did they succeed because of their unique ability to field artillery in larger number? No, it was mostly doctrinal

During some of the naval battles in the Indian Ocean on wikipedia, they are vastly outnumbered in ships, but it doesn't seem like they're outnumbered in cannon. Yes, it's doctrinal to outfit your ships like that.

 

[Tanc49]

.

During some of the naval battles in the Indian Ocean on wikipedia, they are vastly outnumbered in ships, but it doesn't seem like they're outnumbered in cannon. Yes, it's doctrinal to outfit your ships like that.

In naval battles, the Portuguese almost definitely outgunned everyone with batteries of smaller cannons.
On land however... During the siege of Cannanore (1508?) the Samudri of Calicut had a lot of artillery. Same in the siege of Cochin, but the Portuguese were just better at using them

 

[Malta]

I did make an Islamic Ethiopia a Gunpowder Empire in one TL

 

[dandan_noodles]

The Ming also get counted as a gunpowder empire, depending on your sources. Also the Japanese, making mass use of muskets by Korea at the latest, though it didn't quite become a true empire.

 

[Karolus Rex]

In naval battles, the Portuguese almost definitely outgunned everyone with batteries of smaller cannons.
On land however... During the siege of Cannanore (1508?) the Samudri of Calicut had a lot of artillery. Same in the siege of Cochin, but the Portuguese were just better at using them

Just want to add that another doctrinal advantage was that all guns were melted down and the metal used to make new cannons after 300 shots to make sure that the barrels wouldn't crack by too much use and cause the gun to explode. There was also the Room of the 10000 Muskets in Goa, that has the name says it always had a reserve of 10000 muskets and ammunition to equip all the soldiers of the Empire in Asia, the Goa foundry was also famous for the high quality cannons, muskets, swords and armour that they made, the Goa weapons were both of high quality and, for the images that I saw of Goa weapons, very ornamented.

 

[balthasargettysburg]

I look at the question this way:

1) Early gunpowder empires, the earlier the better, starting a period of aggressive growth NO LATER than 1300.

2) If a gunpowder empire you create from scratch (ATL, ASB, kill a king with a smarter brother or sister) make the POD impressive but reasonable. Don't get Turtledove all over it. (I will offer such a one shortly).

 

[Tanc49]

Just want to add that another doctrinal advantage was that all guns were melted down and the metal used to make new cannons after 300 shots to make sure that the barrels wouldn't crack by too much use and cause the gun to explode. There was also the Room of the 10000 Muskets in Goa, that has the name says it always had a reserve of 10000 muskets and ammunition to equip all the soldiers of the Empire in Asia, the Goa foundry was also famous for the high quality cannons, muskets, swords and armour that they made, the Goa weapons were both of high quality and, for the images that I saw of Goa weapons, very ornamented.

Oh, would you have an English source on this? Sounds interesting

 

[Karolus Rex]

Oh, would you have an English source on this? Sounds interesting

Source no because I saw them on a book that was only published in Portugal, but in the Military Museum of Lisbon I saw some of the cannons, swords and pistols.

I do have some pics of Asiatic Weapons, some were made in Goa or other Portuguese foundries in Asia, here is a link. From the muskets pic you can see the level of work those weapons had.