GRAF ZEPPELIN- Germany's aircraft carrier

[zoomar]

As much as the idea of a German carrier is interesting, it seems to me that one carrier is not going to do much overall. Even assuming it did sortie with the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen and was able to provide the tiny task force with sufficient air cover to knock down swordfish and maybe the Catalinas shadowing the fleet, it's tiny force of Bf109T's and "SeaStukas" would have been operated by aircrew completely undertrained and inexperienced on offensive carrier strikes. Also, inspite of what the referenced websites may say, the Germans had not provided a torpedo-bombing component in the initial planning of GZ. One was planned when construction of the ship was temporarly recommenced in 1942, but that would have been too late to help Bismarck. Maybe all three ships might have chewed up some transports and sunk another cruiser or two, but they would have had to make it to Brest pretty soon. Once there, just like the other german fleet units they would have been gradually pounded to bits by the RAF until they channel-dashed to Kiel. Then they would rust away until VE day.

 

[Scott Rosenthal]

Everyone also seems to compare the Me-109T to the stringbags on the british carriers. Lets remember that those were the STRIKE aircraft, not the fighters.

 

[Melvin Loh]

1 instance where Britain in WWII operated her aircraft carriers in spite of enemy air superiority was during the naval campaigning in the Indian Ocean in early 1942 between Adm Sir James Somerville's fleet operating from Ceylon and Adm Nagumo's (IIRC) IJN fleet, which was far superior in aircraft carriers and carrier planes (esp of course the Zero as the premier naval fighter), attempting to harass British shipping in the Indian Ocean. The Brits suffered heavily during the course of this naval fighting, losing among prominent capital ships the light carrier HMS HERMES, the cruisers CORNWALL and DORSETSHIRE, and a fair few smaller vessels including the RAN destroyer HMAS VAMPIRE, all to overwhelming Jap air attack.

Another instance re the lesser value of operating carriers in the face of enemy air superiority is re the PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE, where, while I was conducting research back in uni on Australia's level of preparedness for war against the Japs, I read that even had HMS INDOMITABLE not run aground in the West Indies and been able to support the 2 battleships in their sortie against the Jap fleet off northern Malaya, and been able to provide some air cover with her complement of Sea Hurricanes, she still would've ended up being sunk by the IJAF Betty bombers based in Indochina.

 

[zoomar]

1 instance where Britain in WWII operated her aircraft carriers in spite of enemy air superiority was during the naval campaigning in the Indian Ocean in early 1942 between Adm Sir James Somerville's fleet operating from Ceylon and Adm Nagumo's (IIRC) IJN fleet, which was far superior in aircraft carriers and carrier planes (esp of course the Zero as the premier naval fighter), attempting to harass British shipping in the Indian Ocean. The Brits suffered heavily during the course of this naval fighting, losing among prominent capital ships the light carrier HMS HERMES, the cruisers CORNWALL and DORSETSHIRE, and a fair few smaller vessels including the RAN destroyer HMAS VAMPIRE, all to overwhelming Jap air attack.

Another instance re the lesser value of operating carriers in the face of enemy air superiority is re the PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE, where, while I was conducting research back in uni on Australia's level of preparedness for war against the Japs, I read that even had HMS INDOMITABLE not run aground in the West Indies and been able to support the 2 battleships in their sortie against the Jap fleet off northern Malaya, and been able to provide some air cover with her complement of Sea Hurricanes, she still would've ended up being sunk by the IJAF Betty bombers based in Indochina.

All which goes to point out that, unless Germany shipped a fleet of a half dozen carriers with modern aircraft and doctrine, the Graf Zeppelin was a waste of steel better used in submarines and mines Except for her U-boat fleet, Germany in WW2 was a third-rate naval power at best, and no realistic POD (other than perhaps getting her hands on the French navy and working more closely with the Italians - and getting maybe to borrow a real Japanese carrier or two) would have significantly changed the Atlantic war at sea

 

[zoomar]

To keep beating this dead horse, it can't be emphasized enough that Germany completely lacked any doctrine or theory regarding the strategic or tactical use of aircraft carriers, and that their Japanese buddies were very careful to make sure that their technical assistance and advice was somewhat out-of-date. The Bf109T was a modified early war E model which would not have been superior to the Wildcats shipped on British carriers. The Ju87C's would have been no more effective as attack planes than Swordfish, and actually worse because they were only dive bombers. Had the ship actually been completed and placed into service, I have read no sources which indicate the Germans ever gave serious thought (except for the Me155) to updating the capabilities of its 1939-40 era planes. All this is assuming that the ship (essentially an experimental prototype already obsolete in concept to Japanese and US carriers already in service in 1941) would not be plagued with innumerable minor problems limiting it's operatoinal utility even further.

To me, a much more interesting (although perhaps more fanciful) AH might involve German development of aircraft carriers in WW1 like the Brits - and then what might have happened if they had used all their secretive deals with the USSR and Japan to perfect their understanding of this form of warfare - and THEN, what might have been the end result if they had put their post-1935 big ship rebuilding focus on state-of-the-art carriers modelled on current Japanese and US concepts rather than battleships and battlecrusiers. Now THAT's a fascninating WI.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Graf Zeppelin would have been irrelevant. It takes a long time to develop a carrier air arm; the British, Japanese, and Americans spent decades developing carrier tactics and aircraft. GZ would have been an expirimental/training vessel of virtually no operational worth, and would likely have been an extremely early casualty. I do not see how her presence would have materially aided Bismarck; her vulnerability would have made her a liability, not an asset.