Graf Spee sunk by French

[usertron2020]

Two torpedo strikes? Unless the Graf Spee has some kind of special underwater protection that I don't know about or French torpedoes have issues with reliability or warhead size, that ship is doomed. As has been said, the panzershiffes were just super-gunned heavy cruisers, and no heavy cruiser outside of the newest toughest Japanese CA's could be expected to survive that kind of punishment.

EDIT: For the next thread in this vein:

If the French Navy sails to freedom post-surrender and joins the Free French Fleet, "What if the Free French Navy sinks the Bismarck"?

 

[Saphroneth]

Two torpedo strikes? Unless the Graf Spee has some kind of special underwater protection that I don't know about or French torpedoes have issues with reliability or warhead size, that ship is doomed. As has been said, the panzershiffes were just super-gunned heavy cruisers, and no heavy cruiser outside of the newest toughest Japanese CA's could be expected to survive that kind of punishment.

317 lb warhead, according to NavWeaps. TNT. Reliability - not sure. Given everyone's torps as of start-WW2, one or both could explode - or none, though I doubt it. (That would take them operating well outside expected usage conditions, and I don't think that's the case here.)

 

[sharlin]

It would not sink her, the air dropped torpedoes lugged by those French planes are quite small and whilst there would be flooding and shock damage, it would probably be survivable unless it hit somewhere nasty like right astern or on a shaft. What this has done is slowed the Spee so she has NO chance of escaping.

Also it was a GREAT update

 

[Saphroneth]

It would not sink her, the air dropped torpedoes lugged by those French planes are quite small and whilst there would be flooding and shock damage, it would probably be survivable unless it hit somewhere nasty like right astern or on a shaft. What this has done is slowed the Spee so she has NO chance of escaping.

Also it was a GREAT update

Which is exactly what everyone planned for aircraft carriers to do. The dear old Bearn (mocked so often - justifiably!) has just become the first proof to the world that everyone's expectations of what carriers can do are absolutely right.

Perhaps the French can pull that HOI2 glitch trick where they sell it three times!

 

[Some Bloke]

This is excellent.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Two torpedo strikes? Unless the Graf Spee has some kind of special underwater protection that I don't know about or French torpedoes have issues with reliability or warhead size, that ship is doomed. As has been said, the panzershiffes were just super-gunned heavy cruisers, and no heavy cruiser outside of the newest toughest Japanese CA's could be expected to survive that kind of punishment.

EDIT: For the next thread in this vein:

If the French Navy sails to freedom post-surrender and joins the Free French Fleet, "What if the Free French Navy sinks the Bismarck"?

Doomed? Possibly not by the hits alone - although its quite possible that accrued damage will result in her demise from other sources

Replace Hood+POW patrol in the Danish Straights with Richelieu and Dunkerque with Gloire and Georges Leygues along with Bearn (now equipped with a squadron each of American Fighters, Dive bombers and Torpedo Bombers) Providing air cover.

317 lb warhead, according to NavWeaps. TNT. Reliability - not sure. Given everyone's torps as of start-WW2, one or both could explode - or none, though I doubt it. (That would take them operating well outside expected usage conditions, and I don't think that's the case here.)

Well done - I could not find much about the 3 Aircraft let alone the type of torpedos (for example both the Spotter and fighter could carry bombs but I decided that was too much and unlikely for this POD)

It would not sink her, the air dropped torpedoes lugged by those French planes are quite small and whilst there would be flooding and shock damage, it would probably be survivable unless it hit somewhere nasty like right astern or on a shaft. What this has done is slowed the Spee so she has NO chance of escaping.

Also it was a GREAT update

Thanks - Im enjoying this little POD

I am looking at historical damage to other ships and deciding what happens next - as you have probably guessed its unlikly to be crippling

Which is exactly what everyone planned for aircraft carriers to do. The dear old Bearn (mocked so often - justifiably!) has just become the first proof to the world that everyone's expectations of what carriers can do are absolutely right.

Perhaps the French can pull that HOI2 glitch trick where they sell it three times!

Yep a successful strike will certainly open eyes at least in the western Navies (HOI3! not played that for a while)

This is excellent.

Thanks - its an odd one - I'm enjoying the 'limited' research

 

[usertron2020]

T
If the French Navy sails to freedom post-surrender and joins the Free French Fleet, "What if the Free French Navy sinks the Bismarck"?

Replace Hood+POW patrol in the Danish Straights with Richelieu and Dunkerque with Gloire and Georges Leygues along with Bearn (now equipped with a squadron each of American Fighters, Dive bombers and Torpedo Bombers) Providing air cover.

So, when can you get started? Or will this be built into this same thread? Magnificent work, BTW.

 

[Zheng He]

Bumping this one...

 

[Gudestein]

This is a very well written and entertaining timeline. Also fascinating to realize how these relatively early POD's - without doing any real material difference - can change a lot of things as they impact doctrines and perceptions in the future war.

 

[Some Bloke]

Good point. Bump.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Bumping this one...

Will try to write the next bit tonight

 

[tigercat]

Have enjoyed this immensely

 

[Samarkand]

The only way the flight commander`s actions would have been more awesome is if he`d tossed an empty wine bottle at his target when he flashed by.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

If the French sink the G-SPEE the Germans might demand compensation in form of French ships after the French surrender. As soon as the (Vichy)French surrender one ship to the Germans the British reaction will be WORSE than OTL. THis could push France a littte more in direction of the Axis.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part Four – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee

“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part Four – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee – 24th/25th Dec 1940

The relative silence that ensued after the last of the French Aircraft droned away to the North West out of range of Graf Spee’s AAA was shocking

Langsdorff used the ships compass pedestal to haul himself unsteadily onto his feet having been thrown to the deck by the midship torpedo hit.

A rating handed him his hat and then he contacted the Engine room and ordered all stop

They had taken a hit to the Port bows and then amidships on the Starboard side

So far he had no idea how seriously they had been damaged

Looking around the Bridge no one appears to be hurt and the Captain immediate began to demand a damage report from his senior officers.

The stink of aviation fuel was over powering and looking back from the Bridge wing he could see that the Arado had half fallen from its catapult shattering one of the wings in the process.

Fuel from a ruptured wing tank was raining all over the boat deck and already a damage control team was hosing the area down while other crewmen got the boat crane into operation.

The aircraft was obviously a write off so without hesitation and seeing it as an immediate threat of fire the Captain ordered his Gunnery officer to take charge and ditch the aircraft over the side.

Reports rapidly came in from various departments
Engineering reported that the Starboard hit had impacted on the main armour belt and several seams had fractured resulting in flooding – 6 members of the Engine room crew had been injured, 1 seriously.

But other than that the Engines where undamaged (although all 4 Diesel Engines on the Starboard side had stalled – the fault quickly located to a jammed fuel shutoff valve that had quickly been freed) no vibration had been detected on the shafts and the rudder was answering the helm.

So far the main pumps where keeping up with the incoming water and furious damage control efforts were underway to reduce the leaks in the engineering space.
It was obvious that a torpedo to that location should have been fatal and so the weapon must have exploded prematurely or partially to have not holed the ship.

That as things went was the good news

The other hit to the bow had been more devastating – blowing a 6 meter gash about 10 meters back from the bow and buckling the first forward bulkhead as well as many of the water tight doors in the area.

The main anchor had been sheared from the chain and flooding was being reported as far back as the forward mess area just forward of Turret Anton.

Crews fighting waste deep water were attempting to shore up several damaged hatches using braced lengths of wood to seal those that had failed and a portable pump was quickly brought forwards to help deal with the flooding.

Two men were missing – believed to be in one of the damaged sections. But the ship came first and the members of the damage control teams had to forget about them for now as they struggled to manoeuvre more wooden beams into place.

Despite the seriousness of the damage it soon started to look to the Captain and his First officer like it wasn’t going to be fatal
Then the senior engineering officer covered from head to boots with grime arrived and bluntly gave them the news that that the damage probably had in fact been fatal after all.

30 miles to the North West the Strike group had regrouped for the flight back to the Bearn and in the last of the daylight those aircraft damaged in the attack were being ‘checked over’ by their wingmen

2 of the Torpedo planes had received superficial damage and their crews were relieved to see the thumbs up from their ‘oppos’ that it did not appear to be bad
However the damaged fighter plane was in more serious shape.

A 5.9” flak shell had exploded very close by to the high winged fighter plane shredding the vertical stabiliser and ripping holes in the port wing and damaging the port side landing gear strut.

The most serious damage however was the single piece of shrapnel that had ripped open the pilots left calf and filled his left boot with blood.

It squelched each time the 21 year old pilot painfully had to make a correction.

He knew that if he passed out he would die as his plane, out of control would hit the sea

And he didn’t want to die, it would be wrong.

It was Christmas tomorrow and he shouldn’t die not on Christmas Eve.

So to keep himself from drifting off he sang half remembered Christmas carols from his childhood and an American song “Jeepers Creepers” that he had recently heard and stuck in his head as loudly as he could, glad that his section leader (who was keeping a worried eye on him 50 meters of his port wing) could not hear him singing badly or see him crying.

To the West the sun suddenly disappeared below the horizon as it does at this latitude and it quickly began to get dark.

It would be 30 minutes till they arrived at the carrier.

 

[sharlin]

Wow thats powerful stuff at the end there. Dang well written!

 

[Driftless]

Well done!

Have you ever read "The Ship" by CS Forester? It conveys those individual stories that carry the larger narrative.

 

[usertron2020]

If the French sink the G-SPEE the Germans might demand compensation in form of French ships after the French surrender. As soon as the (Vichy)French surrender one ship to the Germans the British reaction will be WORSE than OTL. THis could push France a littte more in direction of the Axis.

Except for the Vichyites to start handing over portions of the fleet (to the Italians I would assume as there's no way to get them to Germany) that would in fact justify an Anglo assault on the Vichy French Fleet.

 

[Cymraeg]

Brilliant - more please!

 

[Deleted member 9338]

The flip side is that the French Navy after such a victory could feel closer to the Royal Navy and side with it, if there is a surrender.