Glossary of Sealion Threads

Good points

Getting horse down artillery and tanks across in barges or small boats is . . . A more difficult problem.
Forget that. Imagine simply the common trooper with full gear, carrying anything from 20-30kg on his back, plus personal weapon. And, if I remember correctly in german infantry squads, all the extra ammo belts for the MG34s...
Not to mention most of the men were taken off on steamers or destroyers and smaller warships, not the courageous small civilian craft that get hyped up so much.
I know, but the... person's point was that "small boats= barges so it works"...
 
Tunguska meteor hits London straight after the Fall of France - what happens next?
Next? You get reminded that:
1. Geologic/Astronomical PoDs,by convention, belong in the ASB forum.
2. That blatant low effort trolling is not welcomed on this forum.
 
My take on a "successful" Sealion:
-Hitler has another one of his insanity attacks and replaces it with "Operation Rubber Duck" where Germany produces a massive quantity of dummy ships which are then sent through the english channel. Why? No idea, distract Britain or something!

I'm not trolling, legit think that would be a fun bizarre timeline. Like a Quicksilver taken to beyond the reasonable.

 
We've got a new one:
 
We've got a new one:
Pretty similar to most of the old ones though, isn't it.
 
I have a question regarding Sealion that I'm pondering starting a thread on. But it might be better asked here first.

Basically, IF Nazi Germany had done any strategic planning from 1936 or so*, .....

What realistic level of preparations could they make to invade the UK? What resources could be devoted to them? For that matter, even a 'WTF do we do Now ?' Study that could be pulled out of the filing cabinet after the Fall of France?

Any suggestions?

Apart from the obvious 'Nazi Germany? Long-term Strategic plans? To ASB with it!'

* Think the rough equivalent of the US War Plan Red.
 
Massive increase in number of light and medium escorts: destroyers & cruisers. As in 40-50 more (enough?)
Massive increase in number of troop carriers. Actual ships, not barges...
Massive investment in amphib ops training and planning... in which, afaik, Germany had zero experience ("Rhein barges").
A frakton more fighters and bombers to escort them, not to mention first gain air superiority over, at the very least, the south of England.

And all of this done before 1940. All of this means a colossal investment in industrial capacity. Which Germany didn't have.
 
Massive increase in number of light and medium escorts: destroyers & cruisers. As in 40-50 more (enough?)
Massive increase in number of troop carriers. Actual ships, not barges...
Massive investment in amphib ops training and planning... in which, afaik, Germany had zero experience ("Rhein barges").
A frakton more fighters and bombers to escort them, not to mention first gain air superiority over, at the very least, the south of England.

And all of this done before 1940. All of this means a colossal investment in industrial capacity. Which Germany didn't have.
Yes, that's what's impossible to do without messing up their Army and failing to defeat Poland, let alone France.

What is achievable given their resources? Is there anything that a forward-looking* General Staff and OKW could do in the way of plans and preparation? With minimal resource demands.

I suspect answer is "nothing that raises Sealion from totally impossible to almost feasible". But how do we prove that to everyone's satisfaction?

*OK, also close to ASB for the Nazis.
 
I suspect answer is "nothing that raises Sealion from totally impossible to almost feasible". But how do we prove that to everyone's satisfaction?

*OK, also close to ASB for the Nazis.
My highlight...

As for satisfying everyone? You can't. You have people who believe unpowered river barges are a good way to carry troops over open ocean. That the RN would either all run away or be sunk by one-shot Stukas. That the tiny number of DDs the Kriegsmarine had was more than enough. That geman paras would swarm over southern England by teh thousands (and this despite the losses the Ju-52 fleet had taken...). Heck, I once saw one guy saying that all it would take was to have the Bismarck up and running and doing escort!!
 
Yes, that's what's impossible to do without messing up their Army and failing to defeat Poland, let alone France.

What is achievable given their resources? Is there anything that a forward-looking* General Staff and OKW could do in the way of plans and preparation? With minimal resource demands.

I suspect answer is "nothing that raises Sealion from totally impossible to almost feasible". But how do we prove that to everyone's satisfaction?

*OK, also close to ASB for the Nazis.
The reason Sea Lion is so fascinating is that it is not - technically - ASB:
The Luftwaffe could win the Battle of Britain.
The KM could force a sea corridor across the channel.
The army could get an expeditionary force to the south coast of England.
Germany could keep the corridor open and the army supplied.
The invasion force could reach London and could take Britain out of the war.
This all could be done without wrecking the German ability to wage war.

The first is the only one with a reasonable chance, the rest are absurdly unlikely, and the last is the kicker: "Mein Fuhrer, a plunder economy is all fine and good, nations have been doing that for uncounted years, but seized crops in farmlands and seized mining output is doing no one any good if it can't be moved to the workers and factories!"

Also, lets not just call the Nazis stupid and let it go. Nazi ideology certainly didn't help, and many mistakes were made, but "Good idea, but Jerry would never think of that" dismissal doesn't help. (And to be fair, staffing the British command with a bunch of Nigel Bruce stereotype duffers isn't all that great an idea either).

The problem with any answers to the question of "What could Germany have done different?" is that Britain would have changed production in response. For example, Germany produces a fleet of E-boats? Britain would invest in more destroyers. More U-boats? More ASW. etc
 
What if I wrote a Sealion that catastrophically failed? Would it be acceptable on this site if written well enough? I'm thinking they do get a few troops ashore, but they get very quickly cut off and within a matter of days their ammunition and the shells for any cannons and tanks that they bring over run out, whilst the Kreigsmarine gets wrecked in the Channel and loses nearly all it's surface ships.
 
What if I wrote a Sealion that catastrophically failed? Would it be acceptable on this site if written well enough? I'm thinking they do get a few troops ashore, but they get very quickly cut off and within a matter of days their ammunition and the shells for any cannons and tanks that they bring over run out, whilst the Kreigsmarine gets wrecked in the Channel and loses nearly all it's surface ships.
IMHO Yes, provided there is a credible reason why the Germans launch it.

There is a TL in the Finished Section of the Board worth studying. A Better Show by Michel.

In it, the Germans do have reasons to think that they have sufficient air superiority for SeaLion to succeed. Something like that is desirable but no doubt different PODs. The difficulty is to make them plausible, especially starting in June 1940 with the forces, commanders and organisation as OTL

Good Luck
 
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