Glossary of Sealion Threads

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by IchBinDieKaiser, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

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    I'm not here to discuss anything about the Unspeakable seamammal. I decided to make this thread as a source for new members to go to for all of their sealion fantasies, flaming, etc so that we don't have to constantly see new Sealion threads. So post links to any thread about Sealion here and when ever someone asks about it you can direct them to this thread as a directory. Kill the seamammal.
     
  2. Mostlyharmless Well-Known Member

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    I used the search function to find threads with Sealion, Seelowe and Seel[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ö[/FONT]we in the title looking just in the After 1900 forum. Perhaps one or two threads with Seeloewe are trying to slip past the British in the dark and there will be probably be a swarm of "successful invasion in 1940" threads that have escaped. I kept the number of posts and views as 19.1.2011 to give some idea of the extent of the discussion. Some of the listed posts do not actually discuss Sealion. For example, one discusses Japanese invasion plans against Australia. However, this list does give some idea of the effort expended by present and former members since 2004.[/FONT]

    British after DEFEATED Sealion ( 1 2 3 4 5 6) KillerT 108 4383
    British after Sealion ( 1 2 3) Pichuscrat 48 1270
    American Sealion ( 1 2 3) Arcvalons 40 1351
    Realistic Reverse Sealion Puget Sound 8 575
    So HOW disasterous would Sealion be? ( 1 2) henri 31 1705
    Operation Sealion, A German Success Evilprodigy 13 601
    Saving Private Sealion BlackWave 14 507
    Sealion Interview Mostlyharmless 11 742
    Sealion Realtime Coxed ( 1 2 3 4) patch_g 70 2897
    Sealion '41 Dan 4 512
    Hilter's Sealion Ming777 9 602
    Operation Sealion ( 1 2) Polarity 23 1010
    Sealion Posts ( 1 2 3) merlin 40 1752
    An interesting take on Sealion ( 1 2 3 4) Grey Wolf 67 3353
    Latest POD for a successful Sealion. Snowstalker 17 556
    Perfidious Albion encourages Sealion cerebus 13 776
    Billy Mitchell causes successful Operation Sealion! SunilTanna 10 712
    Ultimate Challenge (besides Sealion): Mondale beats Reagan! Snowstalker 10 409
    Political Consequences of a Failed Sealion usertron2020 7 539
    Successful Sealion? ( 1 2 3 4 5) Snowstalker 96 3622
    A question about Operation Sealion? EMPEPEROR OF SCANDANAVIA 12 731
    Looking for Sealion debunks Alamo 1 292
    Plans for the aftermath of a successful Sealion? TheNordicBrit 7 535
    Ireland if sealion was sucessful ( 1 2) NIK PARMEN 30 1420
    AH Challange-WW1 Sealion King Thomas 12 646
    Sealion! ( 1 2 3) varyar 42 1476
    DBWI: Sealion!, the musical Dilvish 5 350
    Succesful Sealion ( 1 2) Abdul Alhazred 21 709
    Asian Sealion Expat 1 304
    WI no Sealion plan? BlackWave 5 290
    Plausibility Check: Sealion in 1941 Onkel Willie 18 631
    Reverse Sealion... Mr Stereo1 9 783
    N00BWI: Sealion Lord Malikai 13 520
    Effects of a German Debacle Sealion BigWillyG 19 712
    WI Churchill tricked Hitler into launching S*****n? King Thomas 6 466
    Sealion as a Dieppe-style raid ( 1 2) Onkel Willie 27 1102
    Plausibility Check: A Soviet Sealion Fardell 7 341
    Sealion With Less 'Sea' eltf177 2 517
    To Sealion and Beyond... ( 1 2) Chris 35 1802
    After A Failed Sealion rip89 15 725
    As queer as a Clockwork Sealion ( 1 2) maverick 27 1532
    Operation Sealion Bavarian Raven 12 460
    effects of failed sealion kellineil 8 556
    Looking for a good Sealion thread mowque 3 222
    DBWI Germany had not tried Sealion yourworstnightmare 10 608
    WI Sealion Attempted Tyr 17 880
    Could Sealion have worked If? ( 1 2) Churchill 23 887
    Operation Sealion succeeds... ( 1 2) dmz23 33 1618
    Sealion successfull ( 1 2) MUC 26 940
    A Dieppe-style Sealion ( 1 2 3) Jason 45 1868
    Operation Sealion disaster Michel Van 10 907
    BardWI: WI Operation Sealion Was Succesful ( 1 2 3 4) Hannibal.Caesar 60 1868
    NoobWI: What if Operation Sealion suceeded? Sid the Bandit 16 661
    A More Realistic Sealion Outcome ( 1 2) eltf177 37 1730
    A different name for Operation Sealion ( 1 2) DMA 37 1232
    N00BWI: how might Sealion succeed? ( 1 2) the_lyniezian 22 778
    Plan a Successful Sealion! ( 1 2 3) Nekromans 49 1487
    Operation Sealion ( 1 2) zeitenschmiede 27 1200
    What if the Germans attempted Sealion... ( 1 2) demonkangaroo 21 1296
    Challenge - Make Sealion Possible ! ( 1 2 3) Grey Wolf 45 2251
    DBWI: What if Sealion had... failed? ( 1 2) Dean_the_Young 26 1208
    Time for the Semiannual Sealion Smackdown! ( 1 2 3 4) Dean_the_Young 75 2774
    Operation Sealion Fails Landshark 15 1000
    sealion with a sporting chance ( 1 2) Paul Edwards 30 1048
    My Attempt on a Successful Sealion Berra 18 725
    Operation Sealion ( 1 2) dmz23 32 1048
    The effects of a failed Sealion Justin Green 11 867
    Poll: SeaLion - the poll ( 1 2 3) Magnum 55 1857
    Could Operation Sealion have worked? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) RCTFI 183 6955
    Operatsiya Morskoi Lev - a Soviet Sealion Midgard 9 813
    Sealion 67th Tigers 11 589
    Operation Sealion by Air?? ( 1 2 3) trajen777 45 1273
    Operation Sealion FAILS! Scarecrow 16 672
    Wi: Operation Sealion is a plausible TL ( 1 2) Bismarck 22 941
    Never mind Sealion here is the attack on the Radiostation Helgoland oberdada 19 655
    Operation Sealion ( 1 2) Fenwick 22 903
    Operation Sealion ( 1 2 3 4 5 6) Chingo360 116 3170
    What if operation Sealion was a success? ( 1 2) Fenwick 39 1001
    Yet another Sealion thread aktarian 2 431
    Successful Sealion aktarian 7 584
    New Sealion: Japanese invasion Down Under? ( 1 2) chrispi 23 1237
    Sealion! ...kinda. Tetsu 4 484
    WI: Sealion Attempted and Failed ( 1 2) TheLoneAmigo 31 1226
    ATL - Successful OP Sealion campaign ( 1 2 3 4) Hail the Omnissiah! 74 2796

    Seelowe Succesful!! Mein gott Gustavus Adolphus 2 245
    AH Challenge Have Seelowe inflict the Most damage on Britain Gustavus Adolphus 9 419
    Seelowe ( 1 2 3 4 5) Graehame 81 3260
    AH Challenge: Uber Seelowe, A German invasion of America. ( 1 2) The Red 24 1035


    IS Seelöwe The Only Way To German Victory? ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page) Dave in St. Louis 213 6233
    Seelöwe successful, so what? ( 1 2 3 4) Wyragen-TXRG4P 69 2935
    Ultimate Challenge: Unternehmen Seelöwe ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) Ariosto 166 5430
     
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  3. PhilKearny Free Bill Cameron! Free TFSmith121, too!

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  4. jayel Well-Known Member

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    A Real Sea Lion

    So with a POD of 1933 shortly after Hitler become Chancellor he hears about the Italian underwater teams. He set up a Special Forces operation along the lines of the Decima Flottiglia Mezzi d'Assalto (10th Assault Vehicle Flotilla) training the indigenous Baltic sea mammals the Grey seal, Ringed seal, Harbor seal, and Harbor porpoises after war is declared he sends the Sea Lion unit to the English coastal waters. They eat all the local herring causing a severe shortage of kippers driving perfidious Avalon to its knees and forcing a surrender, possible?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
  5. Mostlyharmless Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps we not only need a list of threads but also need the threads to be classified into groups.

    Clearly one group of threads can be removed immediately, those that do not concern a German invasion of Britain during WW2 such as:Ultimate Challenge (besides Sealion): Mondale beats Reagan!, New Sealion: Japanese invasion Down Under?, AH Challenge: Uber Seelowe, A German invasion of America etc.

    Some other threads explicitly focus on alternatives to Sealion such as IS Seelöwe The Only Way To German Victory?

    There is another group of threads and of postings within the threads which focus on being humorous. Examples include Sealion Realtime Coxed or https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=589433#post589433. These offer useful warnings to a newbie poster but may not fill in all the details.

    There are threads which look at the possible consequences of successful or unsuccessful Sealion operations without necessarily going into details about the invasion attempt itself. British after DEFEATED Sealion, British after Sealion and Seelöwe successful, so what? are fairly recent while After A Failed Sealion, The effects of a failed Sealion, What if operation Sealion was a success? and WI: Sealion Attempted and Failed are older.

    A related group simply takes a successful Sealion as the back story. Going outside AH.com, Murray Davies' novel Collaborator won the 2003 Sidewise Award using that approach.

    We are now down to a small fraction of the threads and posts but the ones that actually look at the plausibility of a successful Sealion. The overwhelming consensus is that Sealion would have failed. A good essay discussing why is Ian's at https://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/essays/Sealion.html. Naturally not everyone is going to give up so easily. After all we already knew that the Germans lost. So they start asking what possible changes in history might have allowed Sealion to win. Challenge - Make Sealion Possible ! or Could Operation Sealion have worked? are examples of threads on this. Of course it gets easier, if you start the divergence earlier. Ultimate Challenge: Unternehmen Seelöwe suggested that January 1940 is too late for a successful Sealion POD. I tried with a POD of 3rd September 1939 in Sealion Interview and didn't quite convince myself although it was fun. The basic idea was to use magnetic mines as a surprise weapon. Berra suggested a POD of the British not developing radar in My Attempt on a Successful Sealion but again did not convince everyone.

    Before leaving Sealion's plausibility, I would like to mention that much of history is ASB before it happens:


    How can a group of Greek cities that have never agreed on anything resist the Persian empire?

    How could anyone knowing the diameter of the Earth from Eratosthenes and the distance to China from Marco Polo be daft enough to try to sail directly from Spain to China and expect not to run out of drinking water?
    But Cortes, how many to one do you expect that the Aztecs outnumber you?
    Do you really believe that a gang of colonists can defeat the World's greatest power and then form a stable republic?
    Do you expect that the famous French army will send its most mobile reserves to The Netherlands, fail to dig defences at Sedan over more than six months, not notice that 7/10s of the German armour is moving through the Ardennes for three days (helped by the Belgian troops withdrawing out of their way) and then not send all available reserves to attack the bridgeheads over the Meuse before they are reinforced?
    Do you expect that Mussolini would leave a third of his merchant ships outside the Mediterranean when he declares war and would then attack Greece instead of concentrating on the British?
    Do you believe that Stalin will be paranoid enough to kill most of his own officers and will then refuse to believe intelligence reports that the Germans may attack?
    Stanley Hornbeck, the Head of the State Department's Asia Desk, was offering bets that the Japanese would do nothing in late November 1941.
    Do you think the President Nixon will have his words taped and not have them wiped?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
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  6. mailinutile2 Arrogant Bastard

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  7. Gridley Well-Known Member

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    While I agree in theory, I think most of your examples need some work.
    The Greeks could, as the phrase goes, hang together or hang separately. Even so, some of them fought on the Persian side. The naval side of the wars was quite important, and an early example of the decisive effects of seapower on land warfare.
    Columbus didn't believe the measurements. Several of (Isabella's?) advisers did, and urged her not to fund the expedition on that basis. She, like Columbus, didn't understand the math (politicians being notably bad at that in just about all time periods), and didn't care about things she didn't understand (also a common trait of politicians).
    If you're referring to the (1st) American Revolution, then the colonists didn't defeat the British, except locally. The French drove off the British fleet at a key point in the war, and diverted large numbers of British troops earmarked for America.
    This would be the famous French army that mutinied in WWI? That lost the Franco-Prussian War? Who's only recent victories had been against the equivalent of third-world countries? The French army was indeed LOOKED UPON AT THE TIME as powerful, but any realistic examination after the fact reveals that they had a reputation they couldn't match.
    Mussolini was a moron. Such people rising to power is hardly unheard of. The results tend to rather bad for their countries.
     
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  8. Alexius I Kommenos Well-Known Member

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    Their is one seelowe thread that is possible, that's right Red's Seelowe succesfull thread Red brilliantly explains how Seelowe succeeds when will you update it:p
     
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  9. Ariosto Populist Republican

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    Unfortunately, with my attempt, I came around that anytime after the Invasion of Poland was too late for an invasion of the British Isles in 1940. The equipment would be ready for an attempt in 1941, but then there would be additional challenges, including the upcoming Operation Barbarossa, so the equipment would be used for other, much smaller operations, such as Crete and possibly Malta.
     
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  10. Don Lardo Well-Known Member

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    Human stupidity, which accounts almost all of your "examples", is not ASB. What's left can be explained as faults in perception at the time or latter day myths and they aren't ASB either.

    Sealion, as planned by Nazi Germany in 1940, is a physical impossibility. Having it occur, let alone succeed, is ASB.

    A Germany can invade a Britain as part of a war during the period in question. Decades of Darkness showed this very neatly. A Nazi Germany mounting such an invasion requires a POD or PODs both "deep" enough and "wrenching" enough as to make the WW2 in question very different if not unrecognizable.

    The fact that the mob of Sea Puppy Fetishists continually refuse to understand is not that a Sealion is impossible but that the Sealion is impossible. There is a difference.
     
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  11. maverick Banned

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    I'm sticking this one for a week as an experiment to see if it stops more Sealion threads from appearing.
     
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  12. Don Lardo Well-Known Member

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    It won't stop them from appearing, nothing will do that absent a change to the human psyche. Just today we had a member see a new topic in the Post 1900 forum and decide post the same topic in the Pre 1900 forum all of one hour and 15 minutes later. :rolleyes:

    it will make it easier to direct Sealion posters to previous discussions and thus nipping Sealion threads in the bud. As soon as one is spotted, a moderator can post "See the sticky..." then lock the thread and prevent a lot of grief.
     
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  13. Whanztastic BohemianAmerican Defenestrater

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    One just did...
     
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  14. Don Lardo Well-Known Member

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    As I previously explained, monkey see monkey do... :rolleyes:

    Hopefully, the mods will now direct the OP here and lock the thread.
     
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  15. Mostlyharmless Well-Known Member

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    Successful Sealions are similar to using FTL in science fiction. They are both implausible but can help to produce the desired story. Thus one justification would be good fiction. Unfortunately, people who read the story will then ask ...
     
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  16. PhilKearny Free Bill Cameron! Free TFSmith121, too!

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    One of the best Sealion timelines, imho, is A Better Show. This provides a rationale look at how Sealion would fail even with a more competent Luftwaffe. Well researched and well written.
     
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  17. PhilKearny Free Bill Cameron! Free TFSmith121, too!

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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
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  18. Cook Support iCAN Banned

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    Isabella was no-one’s fool.

    It is a simple risk verses reward equation; if Columbus was right Isabella was outflanked the Ottomans and the Portuguese and open a route to the limitless wealth of the Indies, if he was wrong she’s lost three ships and a few mercenary sailors.

    So what the fuck, good luck Christopher, send me a postcard when you get to China.
     
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  19. Geekhis Khan I'm Not Dead Yet...

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  20. mailinutile2 Arrogant Bastard

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    On that topic, when will we read another chapter?
     
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