How realistically could WW2 have played out with the western allies and Germany and her allies against the Soviets and the Comintern? The Soviets invading Poland first? Oswald Mosley and Petain in charge of the U.K. and France?
Get the Allies and Nazis against the Soviets in WW2
- Thread starter Bullmoose713
- Start date
Plus an earlier Holodomor and Doctors Plot. That would make Hitler the lesser evil (assuming it butterflies the Wannsee Conference which is a long shot but not ASB).
Trotsky taking charge and starting the war. The Nazis don't do a full-scale Holocaust in this timeline but pogroms are common.
If Germany is a bit less aggressive in foreign policy (i.e. not annexing the rest of Czechoslovakia or invading Poland) and tries to court relations with both Western and Eastern Europe against Communism, then the Winter War (which started two months later) might kick off World War II, assuming that Stalin would still invade Finland without World War II having started.
Dolan
Banned
Hitler ends up assassinated by Communist Agent somewhere in 1936-1938
Instead of turning into Messy Civil War, Goering managed to gain control relatively quickly and Himmler gets shafted. No war with Poland or anything as the Nazi high command turned to just trying to enrich themselves instead of killing people.
The Soviet Union attacks Finland more or less on schedule, Germany responded by helping Finland by sending 'Volunteers' through the sympathetic Denmark and Sweden (who let German troops went through because they are there to help Finland), Stalin ends up attacking Sweden to cut off German troops and War started with Germany and Scandinavian countries at one side, against the Soviet Union in another side.
Soviet thought they could force Germans to stop aiding Scandinavians by opening the second front through Poland (hoping that Germans would divert most their troops there and thus leaving Scandinavian front easily rolled by superior Soviet numbers), too bad Poland refuse Soviet Troops to pass and then Soviet invaded Poland. Causing Britain and France to declare war against the Soviet Union.
Well, it will go disastrously for the Soviet, as now Germany is getting more financial aid from the allies and start pushing through Poland into Moscow (who are happy to let the Germans fight and die while French and British just limit their military involvement in Naval front and maybe helping the Scandinavians).
Germany did want historical Prussian lands and cut Poland a nice deal, if they wanted sea, they better earn their damn share by invading Ukraine rather than insisting on North Sea access, Poland now think having Black Sea access might be better than having none (or being completely conquered by Germany instead), and started their counter-invasion of Ukraine.
And just to kick Soviets when they are down, Turkey decides to invade the Caucasus to Central Asia and get some Azerbaijan and Turkic People's lands (coupled with Turkic Rebellion there).
Germany now besieging Moscow, with Stalin inside, Poland has taken Ukraine, Turkey carves Soviet Caucasus and Central Asia, while northern Russia being occupied by British-French-Scandinavian forces (who set up a White Russian government there).
And then Stalin ends up captured, get a kangaroo trial in Berlin before executed in a very humiliating fashion.
...
Germany gained some historical Prussian Lands plus several additional ones in the Baltics. Poland conquers Ukraine up to Crimea, and won't let British and French talked them to make independent Ukraine since they wanted Sea Access (and Black Sea is a roundabout way to get them), same with Turkey who basically gobble everything up to Stalingard at the North, all while having 'sister Republic' of Turkmenistan installed in Central Asia. Finland gained favorable adjustments, but there is new Democratic North Russia state located in St. Petersburg. Whatever was left from Moscow was made into a Fascist German Puppet.
Of course, not everyone is happy with now enlarged Germany, but now, ironically Poland is their chief ally (along with Turkey). Finland is rather neutral, if basically pro-Democratic, and the North Russian is furious with how Germany make South Russia separate, but basically can't do anything.
And the stage is set at round 2 of European War, when South Russia tries to attack North Russia.
Instead of turning into Messy Civil War, Goering managed to gain control relatively quickly and Himmler gets shafted. No war with Poland or anything as the Nazi high command turned to just trying to enrich themselves instead of killing people.
The Soviet Union attacks Finland more or less on schedule, Germany responded by helping Finland by sending 'Volunteers' through the sympathetic Denmark and Sweden (who let German troops went through because they are there to help Finland), Stalin ends up attacking Sweden to cut off German troops and War started with Germany and Scandinavian countries at one side, against the Soviet Union in another side.
Soviet thought they could force Germans to stop aiding Scandinavians by opening the second front through Poland (hoping that Germans would divert most their troops there and thus leaving Scandinavian front easily rolled by superior Soviet numbers), too bad Poland refuse Soviet Troops to pass and then Soviet invaded Poland. Causing Britain and France to declare war against the Soviet Union.
Well, it will go disastrously for the Soviet, as now Germany is getting more financial aid from the allies and start pushing through Poland into Moscow (who are happy to let the Germans fight and die while French and British just limit their military involvement in Naval front and maybe helping the Scandinavians).
Germany did want historical Prussian lands and cut Poland a nice deal, if they wanted sea, they better earn their damn share by invading Ukraine rather than insisting on North Sea access, Poland now think having Black Sea access might be better than having none (or being completely conquered by Germany instead), and started their counter-invasion of Ukraine.
And just to kick Soviets when they are down, Turkey decides to invade the Caucasus to Central Asia and get some Azerbaijan and Turkic People's lands (coupled with Turkic Rebellion there).
Germany now besieging Moscow, with Stalin inside, Poland has taken Ukraine, Turkey carves Soviet Caucasus and Central Asia, while northern Russia being occupied by British-French-Scandinavian forces (who set up a White Russian government there).
And then Stalin ends up captured, get a kangaroo trial in Berlin before executed in a very humiliating fashion.
...
Germany gained some historical Prussian Lands plus several additional ones in the Baltics. Poland conquers Ukraine up to Crimea, and won't let British and French talked them to make independent Ukraine since they wanted Sea Access (and Black Sea is a roundabout way to get them), same with Turkey who basically gobble everything up to Stalingard at the North, all while having 'sister Republic' of Turkmenistan installed in Central Asia. Finland gained favorable adjustments, but there is new Democratic North Russia state located in St. Petersburg. Whatever was left from Moscow was made into a Fascist German Puppet.
Of course, not everyone is happy with now enlarged Germany, but now, ironically Poland is their chief ally (along with Turkey). Finland is rather neutral, if basically pro-Democratic, and the North Russian is furious with how Germany make South Russia separate, but basically can't do anything.
And the stage is set at round 2 of European War, when South Russia tries to attack North Russia.
BigBlueBox
Banned
@Dolan
And that assumption is completely false. No Molotov-Ribbentrop = No Winter War. Stalin was terrified of an anti-Soviet alliance forming, that’s why he didn’t expand anywhere until the Germans were already at war with France and Britain. This is why Stalin starting WWII doesn’t make any sense at all. He certainly wouldn’t invade Poland by himself either. The most he could go for without a Molotov-Ribbentrop style agreement is the Latvia and Estonia. Chamberlain and Blum certainly won’t send any Tommys or Pierres to die for Riga.
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One needs the USSR to be more aggressive and expansionist than Germany.
Stalin was far too prudent for that, so one needs a different Soviet leader.
What else? Germany started out by making "legitimate" demands (right to acquire all modern arms, including tanks and planes; right to station troops in all of German territory including the Rhineland; self-determination for Austria; self-determination for the Sudeten Germans. Only later did Germany push so far that it caused war.
What could the Soviets do that would be parallel? Move to occupy former Russian imperial territories or vulnerable minor countries, but do so in a way that keeps the UK and France from intervening. (They don't have to like it, they just have to be unwilling to fight over it.) Eventually the Soviets cut a treaty with Germany. Then they poke once too far.
Stalin was far too prudent for that, so one needs a different Soviet leader.
What else? Germany started out by making "legitimate" demands (right to acquire all modern arms, including tanks and planes; right to station troops in all of German territory including the Rhineland; self-determination for Austria; self-determination for the Sudeten Germans. Only later did Germany push so far that it caused war.
What could the Soviets do that would be parallel? Move to occupy former Russian imperial territories or vulnerable minor countries, but do so in a way that keeps the UK and France from intervening. (They don't have to like it, they just have to be unwilling to fight over it.) Eventually the Soviets cut a treaty with Germany. Then they poke once too far.