Germany with no Thirty Years War.

[T3h_shammy]

The aforementioned war decimated much of the land which is now Germany, how would a lesser war, or a war fought in different parts of Europe have an effect on Germany. Chances of early unification? I read that it was only the 30 years war which truly ignited German nationalism, as they saw foreign nations just trample over their lands.

What are some of the effects? How about population wise? Germany fought on the losing side of two of the bloodiest wars in the 20th century and was heavily depopulated in the 30 years war yet remain the largest nation in Europe by population what would the demographics look like otherwise? Just some questions This is probably my weakest area of European History so I'm interested in what you guys think. Search function doesn't work so any links would be appreciated as well. Gracias.

 

[Uriel]

I am under the impression that German nationalism was allready vivid during the late medieval/early modern times (papal-emperor fights, Ulrich von Huttens writings, turkish threat ...) but ebbed down, when the reformation caused a split and was further reduced when Westphalia empowered the princes.

Depopulation was much worse an more centred on Germany than that of any of the world wars. Loses above 50% in some areas. Allmost 200 years till pre war population was reached again.

 

[mowque]

I think simply skipping all the physical destruction would cause a richer, more stable 'center of Europe'. Maybe something a bit more solid then the HRE.

 

[Elfwine]

Or maybe the HRE finally gets its act together.

Not sure how, but that happening might be a good answer to "So how do we avoid the Thirty Years War ravaging Germany?"

Otherwise, Germany is just too easy to see trampled by armies.

 

[Hörnla]

IMHO, there would be other wars and conflicts if you avoid the 30-years-war. The area is ripe for conflict, e.g. the Dutch-Spanish war, which OTL is resolved together with the 30YW, still exists. Same goes for the religious split in Germany. Nevertheless, if we assume there are some minor conflicts instead, it is still a huge change.

Now a more popolous and less destroyed Germany has huge butterflies to offer when it comes to demographics. I am not sure if Germany could at this point of time sustain a far larger population, so I am quite sure there would be more migrations. It is rather less probable that this means an earlier and larger influx to Northern America (IIRC, 1683 is the OTL-date for the first large German group to arrive on today's US soil), but more movement to those regions in the Southeast and East of Europe which also OTL saw German migration in the 17th/18th centuries. This might change the development of the nations there, as they would have an (even) larger German minority.

The HRE would not change that much, though the situation would develop in a different way. The principalities were already quite independant beforehands, an attempt at centralization would spark a different version of the 30YW. Maybe there would be a kind of earlier reduction of the number of principalities (1648, the number was set at an incredible 300something) to a reasonable level (of two or three dozen early-modern states) and those would altogether design the HRE as a kind of confederation more akin to the Deutsche Bund (post-1815).
But I do not see a reasonable scenario for this to happen.

By the way: consequence for my hometown Münster: probably no attempt to break away from the prince-bishop's rule in the 1660s (hosting the peace conference in 1645-48 made Münster's citizens over-eager to become a "Freie Reichsstadt" and made them over-estimate their influence), thus no need to afterwards build the citadel on the site of today's Schloss. This means a) no Hindenburgplatz, as this huge car park was actually kept free to allow the citadel's garrison to shoot into the city and b) if a palace as the current one is to be built for the prince-bishop, it could occur at any given place outside just outside the city-walls (in OTL it replaced the citadel).

 

[Bee]

It's a bit hard to answer the question as posed because the reason that the Thirty Years War doesn't occur will affect what will happen instead.

The War began in Bohemia, which belatedly regretted electing the extremist Catholic Ferdinand II (soon to be HRE, too) as its king. The Protestants there expelled his representatives and cast around for a Protestant Prince willing to be his replacement. Frederick V of the Palatinate accepted and the wheels were set in motion for the next thirty years.

If there's no Bohemian revolt, the Hapsburgs are stronger. If Ferdinand II acquiesces in his deposition, they're weaker. Long term predictions would depend which on which starting point is chosen.