Germany goes East in 1914 - French Munitions Production?

This was a reasonable and interesting discussion thanks to the above for that.

Some thoughts against British intervention:
There is no ultimatum to give Germany here, no leave Belgium now or else (what would happen if OTL Germany just said "oopsies, so sorry" and backed out of invading Belgium and started transferring two corps at a time east????) The only ultimatum could be "rescind your DOW and come to a peace conference over Serbia", just seems weird. It seems the British might wait until August 30th and see how things play out on the Russian frontier.

Some thoughts for:
However DOWing the only logical thing to do, waiting on events to DOW allows Germany to rush import supplies, stash stuff in the colonies, bring reservists from South America into the colonies, bring merchants home, allows them to fit out all sorts of raiders with reserve sailors and merchants brought home. I can't see Britain tolerating that.
Never DOWing may allow Germany to dominate the continent.
 
Still, I have my doubts as to whether British entry into the war is already certain on 2 August. France was not yet at war at that time. France had not even made a decision to declare war on Germany, I understand from French entry into World War I. In theory, France could have chosen to remain neutral. Had Britain then declared war on Germany after all?

What is the importance of Britain in going to war if both the Empire and France are not threatened by Germany? Just to take the few German colonies? For fear of the HSF, Britain has to keep almost its entire fleet in the North Sea, so that it cannot be deployed anywhere else. Not much of an advantage.

Even before Germany declared war on France on August 3rd, the UK had already made serious steps towards war by August 2nd. On August 1 the navy began mobilizing, and though the BEF was still being held at home even pro-peace Liberals were interested in pursuing a "naval war only" compromise. By the morning of August 2nd they had openly decided to support France's navy and the Admiralty had begun active naval coordination, including sharing signals.

The problem undermining the pro-peace faction is that when their ministers resigned PM Asquith had a reserve of other Conservative and Liberal ministers to replace them in a War Coalition. Asquith had already decided by July 31st that he would stand with the Grey and the interventionist party no matter what, including if it meant destroying the existing government and necessitating unity with the Conservatives, though he had enough sense to pursue the most diplomatic route possible and minimize the number of resignations. Once France declares war on Germany in alliance with Russia, the interventionists will push to complete their naval coordination with France as well. Asquith will call for a solely naval war and noncommitment of the BEF as long as Belgian neutrality is respected in order to mollify the Radical Liberals. No matter how many resignations there are, Asquith is PM and holds the core of his cabinet firmly on his side. In fact, too great a number of resignations only increases the impetus behind intervention by bringing in more Conservatives to the cabinet.

The UK was gonna declare war on Germany in August 1914 whether or not it invaded Belgium. The question is what the terms of that war are (Purely naval war in support of France or deploying the BEF) and if enough Radical Liberals resign from the cabinet to necessitate bringing the Conservatives in as backstops in a War Coalition.

Hm .. maybe a sloppy mistake from your source? What I read about German Ostaufmarsch plans is a minimum distribution of 50/50 between east and west, rather 60/40. That means 4 or 5 armies that are deployed in defense against France. The French and Germans are then more or less evenly matched in numbers. Since attacking results in more deaths than defending, especially against the German fortifications, I still give Germany the better chances.

You may also be interested in this thread: FYI : about Ludwig Beck on "East First 1914"

They're quoting verbatim from the primary sources, so not very likely. Not all German deployment plans from 1905-1914 intended to make use of all 8 army HQs, but all divisions are accounted for for that question isn't irrelevant.

I haven't seen a single deployment directive post-1908 which calls for a 50/50 or 60/40 distribution, so I'd be curious what sources you're citing - all Aufmarsch II Ost plans focused a majority of Germany's divisions on Russia. The only place I've seen this mentioned is your link to Wikipedia, which is misquoting Zuber, The Real Germany War Plan. While in 1905-1906 Germany only planned to deploy 10 divisions in the East in Aufmarsch II Ost, this was primarily because Russia was in the grips of a revolution and not a serious threat. This increased to 13 divisions in 1906-1907, 1907-1908, and 1908-1909. Russia's deployments were estimated to initially defensive, so all plans placed the majority of the German Army in the West.

After the October 1908 Bosnian Crisis and reports about the growing strength of the Russian Army, Germany's war plans were rewritten with a substantially larger Russian focus. The 1909-1910 war plan was when the "Grosser Ostaufmarsch" was written, which as I noted above (Quoting Zuber here):

The new Aufmarsch II is a Grosser Ostaufmarsch, a massive deployment to East Prussia which is clearly modelled after Schlieffen’s Aufmärsche of 1900/01 and 1901/02, but with more emphasis on the offensive and less on Schlieffen’s counter-attack.24 It was surely written for a Balkan crisis, a war between Russia and Austria, with Germany assisting Austria and the French initially neutral. Forty-two divisions would deploy to the east. The 1st Army, with two corps and two reserve corps, had to deploy by rail to the left (west) bank of the Vistula and then foot-march about 100km to the west of Soldau. From there it would attack towards Warsaw. The 2nd Army (four corps, two reserve corps) would attack towards Lomza, though an attack on the heavily fortified town itself was considered ‘hopeless’. The 3rd Army (five corps, two reserve corps) would attack towards the Niemen between Grodno and Kowno, principally to fix the Russian forces there in place; the 4th Army (four corps, two reserve corps) would outflank the Niemen line to the north of Vilna.

No variant of this plan from 1909-1910 to when it was largely shelved in 1913 deploys the majority of Germany's strength to the Western Front.

This was a reasonable and interesting discussion thanks to the above for that.

Some thoughts against British intervention:
There is no ultimatum to give Germany here, no leave Belgium now or else (what would happen if OTL Germany just said "oopsies, so sorry" and backed out of invading Belgium and started transferring two corps at a time east????) The only ultimatum could be "rescind your DOW and come to a peace conference over Serbia", just seems weird. It seems the British might wait until August 30th and see how things play out on the Russian frontier.

Some thoughts for:
However DOWing the only logical thing to do, waiting on events to DOW allows Germany to rush import supplies, stash stuff in the colonies, bring reservists from South America into the colonies, bring merchants home, allows them to fit out all sorts of raiders with reserve sailors and merchants brought home. I can't see Britain tolerating that.
Never DOWing may allow Germany to dominate the continent.

The "moderate" Liberal interventionists position was that the UK was better off intervening and picking a side than staying neutral and having either side that wins dislike them. Sitting around and waiting wasn't an option. PM Asquith and his interventionist cabinet ministers were going to resign if they didn't get a DOW in support of France and Russia, and the anti-interventionists had already started resigning on August 2 even before Germany declared war on France and Belgium was invaded. If Germany doesn't invade Belgium it only places limits on the level of intervention you can get (A naval war which doesn't deploy the BEF) and the composition of the Asquith government (Liberals vs War Coalition which includes the Conservatives in the cabinet). Despite public rhetoric, the UK's leaders didn't give a damn about Belgium, it was just a convenient way to justify intervention (And even for several interventionists, it was a deeply inadequate expose for war).
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
The "moderate" Liberal interventionists position was that the UK was better off intervening and picking a side than staying neutral and having either side that wins dislike them.

What was with the widespread belief in the UK and several other countries that you had to pick a side?

There was a similar line of thinking in the Ottoman Empire too. You've got to pick a side to be safe.

Why no consideration of counter-argument? if you stay out, the winners or losers might be unhappy about your choice, but they are too tired and broke to fight you, and certainly too embittered with each other to gang up on you.

The contortions to justify the Triple Entente, to the point of committing to go to war alongside Entente partners, were some pretzel logic. We have to commit to fight on Russia and France's side, otherwise they'll get mad and be a threat to the empire. OK, well then what happens when you help them win the war, won't they be more dangerous? Well, they'll be mad if they lose and we didn't help them. OK, but will they be able and ready to pick a new fight with Britain over that anger if they just lost to Germany?
 
Even before Germany declared war on France on August 3rd, the UK had already made serious steps towards war by August 2nd. On August 1 the navy began mobilizing, and though the BEF was still being held at home even pro-peace Liberals were interested in pursuing a "naval war only" compromise. By the morning of August 2nd they had openly decided to support France's navy and the Admiralty had begun active naval coordination, including sharing signals.

However, I still miss a clear casus belli, if both Belgium and France are not attacked by Germany. Morally speaking, it is a huge difference to go to war to defend a country that is under attack, or to go to war to support a country that chooses to attack. In any case, a German invasion of Luxembourg was not enough, as this source clearly shows:
The neutrality of Luxembourg had been guaranteed by the Powers in the Treaty of London of 1867. The prime minister immediately protested the violation at Berlin, Paris, London, and Brussels. When Paul Cambon received the news in London at 7.42 a.m. he requested a meeting with Sir Edward Grey. The French ambassador brought with him a copy of the 1867 treaty – but Grey took the position that the treaty was a ‘collective instrument’, meaning that if Germany chose to violate it, Britain was released from any obligation to uphold it. Disgusted, Cambon declared that the word ‘honour’ might have ‘to be struck out of the British vocabulary’.

"Naval war only" is a rather naive thought. But with this "promise" the warmongers may succeed in getting Britain into the war. However, British soldiers will soon be deployed against the Ottoman Empire and later on the Macedonian front and in Italy. This creates a full war effort, which will exhaust Britain completely, just like in OTL.

In any case, I don't understand what the British 'fear' is that Germany will dominate central Europe. Jealousy maybe? The German focus on "mitteleuropa" is not a threat to the British Empire. In 1914 Germany was already economically the strongest country in Europe, and it has remained so to this day, despite the loss of two world wars and the loss of a third of its territory. Britain has lost its Empire, so who actually won? A British war entry does not change the geography. Germany remains a large country in the center of Europe, with a large population and a large industry. What's the point for the British to fight against that?

They're quoting verbatim from the primary sources, so not very likely. Not all German deployment plans from 1905-1914 intended to make use of all 8 army HQs, but all divisions are accounted for for that question isn't irrelevant.

I haven't seen a single deployment directive post-1908 which calls for a 50/50 or 60/40 distribution, so I'd be curious what sources you're citing - all Aufmarsch II Ost plans focused a majority of Germany's divisions on Russia. The only place I've seen this mentioned is your link to Wikipedia, which is misquoting Zuber, The Real Germany War Plan. While in 1905-1906 Germany only planned to deploy 10 divisions in the East in Aufmarsch II Ost, this was primarily because Russia was in the grips of a revolution and not a serious threat. This increased to 13 divisions in 1906-1907, 1907-1908, and 1908-1909. Russia's deployments were estimated to initially defensive, so all plans placed the majority of the German Army in the West.

After the October 1908 Bosnian Crisis and reports about the growing strength of the Russian Army, Germany's war plans were rewritten with a substantially larger Russian focus. The 1909-1910 war plan was when the "Grosser Ostaufmarsch" was written, which as I noted above (Quoting Zuber here):

Indeed, I mainly use Wikipedia and other sites as a source. I should buy that book of Zuber... It is also a bit confusing to which version of which deployment plan is referred to. The four plans were updated annually I understand. In any case, given Germany's fear of a French attack, it is out of the question that Germany will send more than half of its army east. "Aufmarsch I Ost" is actually more obvious. Or an "Aufmarsch II Ost" with the number of divisions of "Aufmarsch I Ost". That means 5 armies to defend the west and 3 armies to attack Russia, according to your own source.

If the British warmongers did indeed get their way, I expect the Great War to end about the same as OTL. The Industry in Northern France remains intact in this TL, but the iron ore deposits around Longwy and Briey are in the middle of a war zone and are unusable. France will be able to produce some more weapons and ammunition, but I do not expect any decisive success. By 1916, France will be able to launch a major offensive, i.e., a "Battle of Metz" as a counterpart to the OTL Battle of Verdun. Germany will bleed, but France will also bleed itself to death. French troops will be supplemented by British troops, and perhaps American troops later on? Perhaps the Macedonian and Italian fronts will also play a greater role in this TL.
 
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However, I still miss a clear casus belli, if both Belgium and France are not attacked by Germany. Morally speaking, it is a huge difference to go to war to defend a country that is under attack, or to go to war to support a country that chooses to attack. In any case, a German invasion of Luxembourg was not enough, as this source clearly shows:

Diplomacy isn't a Paradox Interactive game, a "real" casus belli isn't needed. No one in the Cabinet cared about Belgium in the slightest either, certainly not Grey, but he played that card for all it was worth to win support for intervention. All the formulation that the UK needs is that Germany is an "aggressor nation" who has already occupied "tiny Luxembourg" and aims to establish Hunnic hegemony over Eastern Europe.

You're conflating how the war is advertised and justified with how the decision to go to war is made. IOTL Britain's decision to go to war was made by cabinet and Party power politics as well as the logic of the imperial and continental balance of power, which impelled the Asquith cabinet to oppose Germany or else face its complete collapse and mobilized the majority of the cabinet to support that platform. Belgium was an advertised justification but not the root cause of the UK's intervention.

"Naval war only" is a rather naive thought. But with this "promise" the warmongers may succeed in getting Britain into the war. However, British soldiers will soon be deployed against the Ottoman Empire and later on the Macedonian front and in Italy. This creates a full war effort, which will exhaust Britain completely, just like in OTL.
The UK was never exhausted IOTL, and certainly wouldn't be from a much smaller overseas commitment ITTL. I completely agree with you however that in the long run "naval war only" is a useless formulation. However, it had immense appeal even among anti-intervention Liberals pre-Belgium as a way to avoid a full continental commitment. Only with the benefit of hindsight (Ottomans and Italy entering the war, Serbia collapsing, etc.) does the ever-expanding nature of WW1 become obvious.

In any case, I don't understand what the British 'fear' is that Germany will dominate central Europe. Jealousy maybe? The German focus on "mitteleuropa" is not a threat to the British Empire. In 1914 Germany was already economically the strongest country in Europe, and it has remained so to this day, despite the loss of two world wars and the loss of a third of its territory. Britain has lost its Empire, so who actually won? A British war entry does not change the geography. Germany remains a large country in the center of Europe, with a large population and a large industry. What's the point for the British to fight against that?

The two powers had had intense naval competition for some time, especially as Germany expanded its colonial possessions, and Germany's constant butting heads with France overseas in 1905 and 1911 were worrisome prospects. Germany's increasing influence in the Ottoman Empire/Persia didn't help.

Many politicians at the time were gripped by a logic of empire and imperial competition which impelled them to see the world in ways which seem absurd to use nowadays. Nonetheless, if you assume prima facie that maintaining a global empire is good and necessary opposing Germany, even in a bloody continental war, seems sensible.
Indeed, I mainly use Wikipedia and other sites as a source. I should buy that book of Zuber... It is also a bit confusing to which version of which deployment plan is referred to. The four plans were updated annually I understand. In any case, given Germany's fear of a French attack, it is out of the question that Germany will send more than half of its army east. "Aufmarsch I Ost" is actually more obvious. Or an "Aufmarsch II Ost" with the number of divisions of "Aufmarsch I Ost". That means 5 armies to defend the west and 3 armies to attack Russia, according to your own source.

I must confess that I actually misread by own source. Aufmarsch I East/East and West (It was named both) never had the 3 armies East 5 West formulation you've mentioned. Aufmarsch I East deployed 12-13 divisions East and the remainder West. Only the "Great Eastern Deployment", Aufmarsch II Ost, involved a substantial commitment to the East (43 divisions East, 32 West, 10 in reserve) and would be the only plan followed (Moltke the Younger himself is the one who came up with it).

You can claim credit that your formulation of 50% West 50% East was correct, as with the 10 reserve divisions deployed West as they likely would be that's Germany's operational set up. But I've seen no smaller offensively-oriented Eastern commitment than that.

If the British warmongers did indeed get their way, I expect the Great War to end about the same as OTL. The Industry in Northern France remains intact in this TL, but the iron ore deposits around Longwy and Briey are in the middle of a war zone and are unusable. France will be able to produce some more weapons and ammunition, but I do not expect any decisive success. By 1916, France will be able to launch a major offensive, i.e., a "Battle of Metz" as a counterpart to the OTL Battle of Verdun. Germany will bleed, but France will also bleed itself to death. French troops will be supplemented by British troops, and perhaps American troops later on? Perhaps the Macedonian and Italian fronts will also play a greater role in this TL.

You really haven't shown how or why Longwy-Briey will be occupied at all. The entirety of the first wave of fighting, and the majority of both side's divisions, will be between Metz and Strasburg, very distant from the iron ore West of the Moselle.

The French would deploy 3 of their active armies (4th, 2nd, and 1st, West to East) between the Moselle and the Vosges attacking North toward Lorraine as well as part of the 3rd Army, which would invest Metz and cover 4th Army's left wing with 3 corps. In total that's 28 active divisions between Metz and the Bruche, with another 10 reserve divisions in the rear. 5th Army would attack between Metz and the Luxembourg border along with part of 3rd army, 12 divisions total with another 5 in reserve, only entering Luxembourg if the Germans did first. Plan XVII once again for reference:

archives_SHDBG_Q_in4-000004-01-1-C_0008_2.jpg


The German initial mobilization would be 5th Army with 5 corps (10 divisions) from Metz to the Belgian border, 6th and 7th Armies with 10Corps between Metz and Strasbourg, and 2 Corps in Upper Alsace around Mulhouse to await the arrival of the Italian Army. The German intention was to remain flexible and concentrate the majority of its forces against the main French blow. Luxembourg would be invaded, with VII Corps occupying the Moselle, Our, and Sur bridges leading into the country.

The French will have superior numbers West of the Moselle (16 French divisions vs 6-8 German), will be halted along the river and somewhere in Luxembourg, and from there this sideshow theater will be inactive as both side's reserves are consumed in the fighting further East. There's no reason for Germany to commit its meagre forces crossing the Moselle to seize what in 1914 was a wholly unimportant region in their calculus, nor for the French not to reinforce and resist stiffly against German attempts to counterattack across the border should they emerge. IOTL Germany attacked toward Nancy and was driven back across the border by overall weaker French forces. If the French Army is much stronger, there no reason to believe the final frontline when both sides are exhausted won't be well within German territory.

There's actually no reason for Germany to not withdraw behind its fortifications at all if it has initially defeated but not destroyed the French Army. Otherwise it simply invites defeat in the open by a much larger enemy army which still has ample reserves of men and material.

Starting from a hypothesis ("An Eastern Deployment works great for Germany") and then working backward from there to mold facts to the narrative rather than considering potential alternatives ("A strong and unmolested French Army is very dangerous" and "Germany has no plans or ability to occupy or disable French industry") isn't a good way to consider how a TL unfolds.
 
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Diplomacy isn't a Paradox Interactive game, a "real" casus belli isn't needed. No one in the Cabinet cared about Belgium in the slightest either, certainly not Grey, but he played that card for all it was worth to win support for intervention. All the formulation that the UK needs is that Germany is an "aggressor nation" who has already occupied "tiny Luxembourg" and aims to establish Hunnic hegemony over Eastern Europe.

The occupation of Luxembourg was not part of an Ostaufmarsch. Germany will probably not have occupied Luxembourg until after a French declaration of war. By the way, Russia mobilized before Germany, which can also be seen as an act of aggression. All in all, calling Germany an "aggressor nation" is not credible and a great exaggeration.

You're conflating how the war is advertised and justified with how the decision to go to war is made. IOTL Britain's decision to go to war was made by cabinet and Party power politics as well as the logic of the imperial and continental balance of power, which impelled the Asquith cabinet to oppose Germany or else face its complete collapse and mobilized the majority of the cabinet to support that platform. Belgium was an advertised justification but not the root cause of the UK's intervention.

I agree, but will the balance of power be disrupted if France is not attacked by Germany? It was not yet clear how the war in Eastern Europe was going to unfold. Britain was not bound by a treaty to come to the aid of Russia, unlike France. The relation with Russia was not that good, I understand from this article:
The coming into being of the entente did not necessarily fix a permanent division into two opposing power blocs, the situation remained flexible.[21] The alignment of the autocratic Russian Empire with Europe's two largest democracies was controversial on both sides. Many Russian conservatives mistrusted the secular French and recalled British past diplomatic maneuvers to block Russian influence in the Near East. In turn, prominent French and British journalists, academics, and parliamentarians found the reactionary tsarist regime distasteful. Mistrust persisted even during wartime, with British and French politicians expressing relief when Tsar Nicholas II abdicated and was replaced by the Russian Provisional Government after the February Revolution in 1917. An offer of political asylum for the Romanovs was even withdrawn by the British king for fear of popular reaction.[22] Also, France never brought up the subject of asylum with the deposed tsar.
I don't think the Liberal party was easily persuaded to involve Britain in a German-Russian war. This is of course different for France. Although the French government was very indecisive, I understand from this article. I wonder how long it would have taken for France to declare war on Germany. This will probably have been preceded by the necessary consultation with Britain. Perhaps British approval of a French declaration of war is backed by "naval war only", or "conditional neutrality".

The UK was never exhausted IOTL, and certainly wouldn't be from a much smaller overseas commitment ITTL. I completely agree with you however that in the long run "naval war only" is a useless formulation. However, it had immense appeal even among anti-intervention Liberals pre-Belgium as a way to avoid a full continental commitment. Only with the benefit of hindsight (Ottomans and Italy entering the war, Serbia collapsing, etc.) does the ever-expanding nature of WW1 become obvious.

Good that we agree here. By the way, "exhausted" is not the right word. I had in mind the more than a million British deaths and massive debt, but that's hindsight.

The two powers had had intense naval competition for some time, especially as Germany expanded its colonial possessions, and Germany's constant butting heads with France overseas in 1905 and 1911 were worrisome prospects. Germany's increasing influence in the Ottoman Empire/Persia didn't help.

Many politicians at the time were gripped by a logic of empire and imperial competition which impelled them to see the world in ways which seem absurd to use nowadays. Nonetheless, if you assume prima facie that maintaining a global empire is good and necessary opposing Germany, even in a bloody continental war, seems sensible.

Again, we agree. Wilhelm II's policy did not help to maintain friendly relations with Britain.

I must confess that I actually misread by own source. Aufmarsch I East/East and West (It was named both) never had the 3 armies East 5 West formulation you've mentioned. Aufmarsch I East deployed 12-13 divisions East and the remainder West. Only the "Great Eastern Deployment", Aufmarsch II Ost, involved a substantial commitment to the East (43 divisions East, 32 West, 10 in reserve) and would be the only plan followed (Moltke the Younger himself is the one who came up with it).

You can claim credit that your formulation of 50% West 50% East was correct, as with the 10 reserve divisions deployed West as they likely would be that's Germany's operational set up. But I've seen no smaller offensively-oriented Eastern commitment than that.

Good to know! I'm glad you checked this.

The German initial mobilization would be 5th Army with 5 corps (10 divisions) from Metz to the Belgian border, 6th and 7th Armies with 10Corps between Metz and Strasbourg, and 2 Corps in Upper Alsace around Mulhouse to await the arrival of the Italian Army. The German intention was to remain flexible and concentrate the majority of its forces against the main French blow. Luxembourg would be invaded, with VII Corps occupying the Moselle, Our, and Sur bridges leading into the country.

The French will have superior numbers West of the Moselle (16 French divisions vs 6-8 German), will be halted along the river and somewhere in Luxembourg, and from there this sideshow theater will be inactive as both side's reserves are consumed in the fighting further East. There's no reason for Germany to commit its meagre forces crossing the Moselle to seize what in 1914 was a wholly unimportant region in their calculus, nor for the French not to reinforce and resist stiffly against German attempts to counterattack across the border should they emerge. IOTL Germany attacked toward Nancy and was driven back across the border by overall weaker French forces. If the French Army is much stronger, there no reason to believe the final frontline when both sides are exhausted won't be well within German territory.

There's actually no reason for Germany to not withdraw behind its fortifications at all if it has initially defeated but not destroyed the French Army. Otherwise it simply invites defeat in the open by a much larger enemy army which still has ample reserves of men and material.

Well, we'll never know exactly how the battle on the Western Front will turn out in this TL. There has never been a 1914 update of "Aufmarsch II ost". Maybe you are right, maybe you are not. It is unlikely that Germany will give up the west bank of the Moselle so easily.

It is not at all said that a French predominance in numbers also leads to a successful offensive. In OTL East Prussia, the Russians also had the larger armies... and we know how it turned out. Good defenses with artillery and machine guns do not require larger numbers of soldiers. It is quite possible that a French offensive will fail, especially given the poor performance of the French army during the first battles in OTL. A German counterattack can then easily pursue the remnants across the border and occupy some extra territory, such as Longwy and Briey because of the iron ore deposits. The Germans will dig in, causing a trench warfare. But we'll never know for sure...
 
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