Max Sinister
Banned
MarkA said:
That's gonna be interesting... how would Teddy Roosevelt react on the war?
Germany fights France in 1905.
- Thread starter Fenwick
- Start date
That's gonna be interesting... how would Teddy Roosevelt react on the war?
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Just something to think about, as its 1905 the Germans better get it over with dam quick or they are going to run out of nitrates, the Haber Bosch process produce is a long way of, and with a British blockade Germany is not going to be importing much. Logistics, chaps it’s always about logistics in the end, and this time the British are far better of, no U-Boats to counter blockade with. I give the Germans about a year before shortages in strategic materials rely start to bite, and after that it’s down hill all the way. 
MrP
Banned
Ramp-Rat said:Just something to think about, as its 1905 the Germans better get it over with dam quick or they are going to run out of nitrates, the Haber Bosch process produce is a long way of, and with a British blockade Germany is not going to be importing much. Logistics, chaps it’s always about logistics in the end, and this time the British are far better of, no U-Boats to counter blockade with. I give the Germans about a year before shortages in strategic materials rely start to bite, and after that it’s down hill all the way.
Damn me, Ramp-Rat! Excellent catch!
Ramp-Rat said:Just something to think about, as its 1905 the Germans better get it over with dam quick or they are going to run out of nitrates, the Haber Bosch process produce is a long way of, and with a British blockade Germany is not going to be importing much. Logistics, chaps it’s always about logistics in the end, and this time the British are far better of, no U-Boats to counter blockade with. I give the Germans about a year before shortages in strategic materials rely start to bite, and after that it’s down hill all the way.
We are assuming the British join in at this stage, actually that is a whole lot less likely if it is just a Franco-German tiff.
Leej is quite correct,Belgium was just an excuse. the best explanation for British participation I have ever read is that there was a war going on and Britain daren't be left out.
Also the Russia is not a participant, so Germany can import food from Russia uninterrupted anyway, provided they find a way to pay for it.
Hendryk
Banned
Good point, but in this TL, since it's the original Schlieffen plan that gets implemented (or some near-identical early version thereof), that means the Netherlands will get invaded as well as Belgium. No way Britain would let a continental power get away with that, regardless of whether the Entente is effective or not.Leej said:
Max Sinister
Banned
Actually, I read that the British cabinet was unsure and split about whether declaring war at Germany first. They hoped that maybe Germany wouldn't declare war on Russia, or not on France, or wouldn't march through Belgium, or at least not without the Belgians giving their OK... a lot of maybes. But when Germany occupied Luxembourg, deliberately declared war on Russia & France and invaded Belgium, nobody in the cabinet could pretend anymore that not going to war was an option.
trajen777 said:
Scroll down to near the bottom of this link to see some comments of Sir Edward Grey, British foreign secretary
http://www.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/1914m/gooch/88-101.htm
You will see that Begium is not really mentioned - the issue is isolation rather than Balance of Power - there is almost equal concern about Britain's position if France and Russia are triumphant (which is the root of Fergusson's rather over the top thesis about the emnity to Germany being all about appeasing France and Russia.)
AJP Taylor explains very well how in the years leading up to the war that British statesmen were keen to support France against Germany - but also thought that they might need to be supporting Germany against Russia, paradoxically this fear of Russia may well indeed have fed into the decision to declare war on Germany.
Maybe becoming the strongest army in Europe would be enough to stifle Germany's Empire ambitions. Or maybe some crafty Germany diplomat could pass such thoughts along to England.
I really do not see England in this war. It's early 1905 so the Dreadnaught is not in service yet, and the really big naval race between Germany and England is not underway. True the Entente Cordiale was in place, but this was not a military alliance, it was more like a non-aggression treaty. The main point of the treay was set limits to colonial expansion. So i Germany and France go to war over who has control of colonies England stands to gain. For on the one hand they can secure their holdings, and see rival states weakened. On the other England can gain from a long drawn out conflict in Europe. It's Empire is rich and can sell goods to who ever it likes.
I really do not see England in this war. It's early 1905 so the Dreadnaught is not in service yet, and the really big naval race between Germany and England is not underway. True the Entente Cordiale was in place, but this was not a military alliance, it was more like a non-aggression treaty. The main point of the treay was set limits to colonial expansion. So i Germany and France go to war over who has control of colonies England stands to gain. For on the one hand they can secure their holdings, and see rival states weakened. On the other England can gain from a long drawn out conflict in Europe. It's Empire is rich and can sell goods to who ever it likes.
Maybe becoming the strongest army in Europe would be enough to stifle Germany's Empire ambitions. Or maybe some crafty Germany diplomat could pass such thoughts along to England.
I really do not see England in this war. It's early 1905 so the Dreadnaught is not in service yet, and the really big naval race between Germany and England is not underway. True the Entente Cordiale was in place, but this was not a military alliance, it was more like a non-aggression treaty. The main point of the treay was set limits to colonial expansion. So i Germany and France go to war over who has control of colonies England stands to gain. For on the one hand they can secure their holdings, and see rival states weakened. On the other England can gain from a long drawn out conflict in Europe. It's Empire is rich and can sell goods to who ever it likes.
I really do not see England in this war. It's early 1905 so the Dreadnaught is not in service yet, and the really big naval race between Germany and England is not underway. True the Entente Cordiale was in place, but this was not a military alliance, it was more like a non-aggression treaty. The main point of the treay was set limits to colonial expansion. So i Germany and France go to war over who has control of colonies England stands to gain. For on the one hand they can secure their holdings, and see rival states weakened. On the other England can gain from a long drawn out conflict in Europe. It's Empire is rich and can sell goods to who ever it likes.
MrP
Banned
Fenwick said:
*cough*
The really big naval race was the predread race. See those 19 German battleships I noted above? The first was laid down in 1890. The total number of battleships by 1906 was 24. The dreadnought race just made Germany's attempt to have a powerful fleet even more of an apparent threat to the RN. From a standing start Germany had created a fleet out of all proportion to both her international needs and to the requirements of national defence.
More from me in a day or two.
On one hand I could see Britain being neutral. She has little to gain and plenty to lose in a war which is only going to be solved in Europe. While some might delight in the aquistion of German (or even French) colonies, theres not much that is really desired. Trading with both sides and bringing them towards a favourable peace is probably the line she would take. Hmmm... its not quite Cyprus, but how does British control of Alsace-Lorraine sound... (only joking)
On the otherhand if anyone goes after the Benelux countries and starts effecting British trade then I would think war may well be declared. That and I could imagine Britain declaring the channel and possibly even the north sea off limits in regards to surface (or other) warships. Don't want the French of Germans scaring the public after all.
On the otherhand, its hard to imagine Britain just sitting a few miles across the channel as all hell breaks lose on the continent. But if its over as quick as the Franco-Prussian war and Germany doesn't tread on too many toes, why not.
On the otherhand if anyone goes after the Benelux countries and starts effecting British trade then I would think war may well be declared. That and I could imagine Britain declaring the channel and possibly even the north sea off limits in regards to surface (or other) warships. Don't want the French of Germans scaring the public after all.
On the otherhand, its hard to imagine Britain just sitting a few miles across the channel as all hell breaks lose on the continent. But if its over as quick as the Franco-Prussian war and Germany doesn't tread on too many toes, why not.
Redbeard
Banned
Ramp-Rat said:Just something to think about, as its 1905 the Germans better get it over with dam quick or they are going to run out of nitrates, the Haber Bosch process produce is a long way of, and with a British blockade Germany is not going to be importing much. Logistics, chaps it’s always about logistics in the end, and this time the British are far better of, no U-Boats to counter blockade with. I give the Germans about a year before shortages in strategic materials rely start to bite, and after that it’s down hill all the way.
From a short research by Google the socalled Haber process making synthetic nitrate was developed after WWI broke out - in other words not more complicated than possible to develop on demand. But anyway a 1905 war is going to be over before the need arises.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
There's one point noone has made yet.
Arty.
The french are much better from that PoV in 1905 than in 1914. The austro German heavy Guns are much weaker in 1905 than 1914, while for field artilleris, the french already have the excellent 1896-mle 75mm and the german have not yet deployed theit 19-mle 77 mm ( which was inferior anyway, but a huge improvement on previous models ).
Arty.
The french are much better from that PoV in 1905 than in 1914. The austro German heavy Guns are much weaker in 1905 than 1914, while for field artilleris, the french already have the excellent 1896-mle 75mm and the german have not yet deployed theit 19-mle 77 mm ( which was inferior anyway, but a huge improvement on previous models ).
Max Sinister said:
It's WW1, y'know? There's NO Kriegsmarine. Till 1919 (I think) there was Kaisersmarine, then till 30' Reichmarine and only later Kriegsmarine...
fhaessig said:
Heh. I was going to point out that heavy howitzers (i.e. 240mm) were in 1905 much weaker and less numerous than in 1914 - which would make German's advance really slower because they wouldn't have been able to destroy the fortresses in North France so quickly as in OTL - there were a number of them
I personnally can't see how Britain can stay out if Belgium is invaded (all the more so if the Netherlands is as well). Britain had given its guarantee to Belgian neutrality in 1839 and reiterated it in 1870. Whatever the Brits may have thought about the French or the Belgians, you can't hold your rank as a great power if you don't act on your guarantees; that would completely undermine your credibility for any sort of treaty you would sign afterwards.
By the way, there were military conversations between the Belgian Army Chief of Staff and a high-level British representative during the Morocco crisis in 1905 to plan the intervention of the BEF in Belgium if it were attacked. That leaves little doubt as to what British intentions were in case of violation of Belgian neutrality.
Aprt from this, Belgian military situation was horrendous in 1905. General military service was institued only in 1909, and the Belgians would not have been able to field more than 60,000 soldiers. Aside from that, the Liège and Antwerp forts had been seriously neglected. It was King Leopold II's realization of Germany's ambition after a visit to Wilhelm II in 1904 that triggered his lobbying for a stronger defence from that moment on.
By the way, there were military conversations between the Belgian Army Chief of Staff and a high-level British representative during the Morocco crisis in 1905 to plan the intervention of the BEF in Belgium if it were attacked. That leaves little doubt as to what British intentions were in case of violation of Belgian neutrality.
Aprt from this, Belgian military situation was horrendous in 1905. General military service was institued only in 1909, and the Belgians would not have been able to field more than 60,000 soldiers. Aside from that, the Liège and Antwerp forts had been seriously neglected. It was King Leopold II's realization of Germany's ambition after a visit to Wilhelm II in 1904 that triggered his lobbying for a stronger defence from that moment on.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
With regard to my first post, its not just nitrates, there is also cotton, rubber, silk, and chromium, all of which the Germans need. And with out the fear of the
U-Boat, this is going to be close blockade, one that could force the Germans to come out and fight. And at this time there was some Anti-German feeling as a result of German interference during the Boar War, just something to think about.
U-Boat, this is going to be close blockade, one that could force the Germans to come out and fight. And at this time there was some Anti-German feeling as a result of German interference during the Boar War, just something to think about.