Georgia Wins the 2008 War with Russia

What would have happened if Georgia pulled a Finland and kicked Russia's ass?

Georgia's military was trained and equiped by NATO so I don't think it is totally ASB. What would the international reaction have been? What would be the fate of Putin and Medvedev domestically?
 
Pulled a Finland? Finland lost the Winter War to the USSR, and I do think Georgia winning is ASB. As in the Winter War, the Russians can keep sending soldiers against such a tiny Republic. Sure, they could do better, but they didn't have the geography of Finland and during the war, if I recall, their tank regiments fought poorly.
 
Um, no they didn't? The USSR achieved none of their war aims, while Finland achieved it's most important one.

Are you absolutelly sure about that? You should see:

"The Moscow Peace Treaty was signed on 12 March 1940 and went into effect the following day. Finland ceded a portion of Karelia – the entire Karelian Isthmus as well as a large swath of land north of Lake Ladoga. The area included Finland's second largest city of Viipuri, much of Finland's industrialised territory, and significant parts still held by Finland's army—all in all, 11% of the territory and 30% of the economic assets of pre-war Finland.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#cite_note-Edwards-0 Twelve percent of Finland's population, some 422,000 Karelians, were evacuated and lost their homes.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#cite_note-Engle.26Paan1985-35http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#cite_note-helsinginsanomat1-73
Finland also had to cede a part of the region of Salla, the Kalastajansaarento peninsula in the Barents Sea, and four islands in the Gulf of Finland. The Hanko Peninsula was leased to the Soviet Union as a military base for 30 years. The region of Petsamo, captured by the Red Army during the war, was returned to Finland according to the treaty."

This is direct copy-paste from Wiki, sorry if it is not allowed here...
But point is, the soviets won, and the finns got the second place.
And same happened in Georgia. Of course it could be possible that Georgia
winns, but very unlikely. Maybe some kind of better preparations, international pressure against Russia, I don't know.
But most of all, don't mess with sleeping bear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#cite_note-Jow.26Snod2006-33
 

Cook

Banned
I think we can skip the pedantic arguments, we all know what Super_Cool means by “Pulled a Finland”; use a combination of better training, equipment and motivation to achieve tactical victory. Would you prefer he said: “Pulled a Chechnya”?

I don’t see Putin letting anyone get away with that type of thing.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I think we can skip the pedantic arguments, we all know what Super_Cool means by “Pulled a Finland”;


But this is AH.com! We have to show how much we know by having pedantic arguments! It's like a mental pissing contest! :D

use a combination of better training, equipment and motivation to achieve tactical victory.
Would you prefer he said: “Pulled a Chechnya”?

I don’t see Putin letting anyone get away with that type of thing.

Yeah...those Backfires would be flying pretty quick I think. Nothing nuclear or anything, but he might take the gloves off the air force and the Black Sea fleet.
 

Cook

Banned
But this is AH.com! We have to show how much we know by having pedantic arguments! It's like a mental pissing contest! :D

Not to mention that most threads would be a lot shorter without people restating the same argument that someone else did a couple of posts before them.
;)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Not to mention that most threads would be a lot shorter without people restating the same argument that someone else did a couple of posts before them.
;)

Totally!

By the way, everyone, I'd like to weigh in on the Finland argument. And if someone would like to quote me so my ego is stroked I'll act like I didn't notice...:rolleyes:



Well, Cook...I think we took the piss out of this thread. :D
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Well, your free dance lesson is in the mail.

Sweeeeeeeet...

Remember Leo: Chuck Yeager says: Fuck Camping.

I'm about that far from making that my sig. :D

Definitely.

Meanwhile poor ol’ Super_Cool is still waiting for someone to make a serious comment on his initial question.
:D

Oh...shit. There was a question here? What was it? Something about Georgia? Or was that another thread?
 

backstab

Banned
What would have happened if Georgia pulled a Finland and kicked Russia's ass?

Georgia's military was trained and equiped by NATO so I don't think it is totally ASB. What would the international reaction have been? What would be the fate of Putin and Medvedev domestically?


Maybe if Georgia had a US BCT or two in country at the time ... otherwise Putin would have firebombed the whole country.
 
Definitely.

Meanwhile poor ol’ Super_Cool is still waiting for someone to make a serious comment on his initial question.
:D

Poor Super_Cool might be waiting a while. Getting Georgia to win tactically or completely would require sine thinking.

Personally I just don't see how it can be done. It would be like asking how Lebanon or the PLO could defeat Israel in 1982 or how Kampuchea could defeat Vietnam in 1979. In neither case was it really possible unless we took the liberty of:

a) changing the definition of "victory" and thus the subsequent conduct of the conflict - i.e. having the Kampucheans/Lebanese or PLO see harrassing the Vietnamese/Israelis as a victory. Likewise instead of gaining control over South Ossetia as the victory goal, Georgia instead would see harassing and eventually driving out the Russians through guerrilla warfare as a victory. Only problem is that it would only work in the areas outside of South Ossetia and Abkhazia since guerrilla warfare won't work in areas where the civilians aren't supportive. Since Russia had little interest in the rest of Georgia then this would render the whole exercise meaningless since for Georgia it would be an incomplete victory and for Russia it would have meant them doing something they were probably going to do anyway.

b) involving another major power. In the case of Kampuchea it would be China (but in a much bigger way than they did in 1979) and maybe the USA. For Lebanon and/or the PLO it would be maybe Egypt (not Syria - they got trashed anyway) or the USA or USSR. For Georgia it would mean involving the USA.

In either case though it wouldn't really be the minor power's victory (once the US got involved there would be no doubt that it was NOT Georgia's victory but the US' victory).
 

altamiro

Banned
In the (unlikely) case US intervenes, is it plausible to assume that they stick to defensive warfare (gloves off on the Georgian sides of the border, minimal attacks just behind the Russian side of the border, no attacks in Russia's interior) or is it absolutely against US military doctrine?
 
Georgia could have been more successful if it was less busy destroying russian peasekeeping forces and shelling Tshinval and actually think about possible russian retaliation. Especially if they knew (as they claimed later) that large russian forces were already positioned on Russian-Osetian/Georgian border (they really were there).

There is very limited access to Osetia from Russian side - one tunnel in the mountains. Good explosion could close it for a long time. After that Russians could not advance in Osetia. If anything got there before tunnel collapse, there is a good chance to route it for a reasonably trained force as Russians would have trouble with supplies and no reinforsements.

What Russians could do in this situation? They could certainly bomb Georgia, but it would not expell Georgians from Osetia but would result in a lot of civilian casualities. They could try to invade Georgia by different route, but entering Georgian territory directly from Russia would look far less noble then "going to protect civilians in Osetia". Most of the world saw Russia as agressor anyway, but in this case it would look like agression even for those willing to favor Russia. And all this would take time. Georgia would have enough time to take over Osetia and install a loyal administration there. The whole point for Russian involvement there would be lost.

There is also possibility for air-borne assault from Russian side. It's hard to say how it would turn up but there will be more russian casualities anyway, and that's bad for internal feelings about the war.

So, the initial Russian assault could fail, it's not an ASB. Of course if Russia pushed for war even aftar that, there is no more chances for Georgia then for Finland in 1940. But that would hurt Russia internationally very bad, much worse then OTL. So most likely Russian would pull away and Georgia would win.

There would be much disappointment in Russia and further loss of prestige internationally (but probably less harsh reaction, maybe even "let's pretend that nothing happened"). Georgia gets free hands in Abhasia too. Abhasia may lose any faith in Russian help and become willing to accept Georgian terms without fight (but again it may not). Any russian supporten politicians in nearby states may lose footing. Mostly in Ukrane.

As for Russia itself, I'd say nothing really changes there. Of course popularity of Putin would drop further and nobody would pay any attention to Medvedev. But unless military would be really angry, nothing happens in the sort run. In the long run - butterflies know.
 
There is very limited access to Osetia from Russian side - one tunnel in the mountains. Good explosion could close it for a long time. After that Russians could not advance in Osetia. If anything got there before tunnel collapse, there is a good chance to route it for a reasonably trained force as Russians would have trouble with supplies and no reinforsements.

One thing to remember about that: the Russians were using that very same route to evacuate civilians out of S.Ossetia already days before the bulk of the Russian troops moved in. With the ongoing civilian traffic, Georgia could not risk collapsing that tunnel. AFAIK, Russian military trucks were used in the evacuation: one might even argue that the evacuation was partly a cynical ploy to keep the only possible avenue of advance in to the area safe from Georgian interference...
 
One thing to remember about that: the Russians were using that very same route to evacuate civilians out of S.Ossetia already days before the bulk of the Russian troops moved in. With the ongoing civilian traffic, Georgia could not risk collapsing that tunnel. AFAIK, Russian military trucks were used in the evacuation: one might even argue that the evacuation was partly a cynical ploy to keep the only possible avenue of advance in to the area safe from Georgian interference...

Did not think about it. That complicates things... Then, the only option to collapse it after russian force enter Osetia and all fugitives from previous days are on the Russian side and no new ones yet arrived. It is difficult to pull through and there is a Russian army to deal with, but still not ASB.
 

Old Airman

Banned
Georgia could have been more successful if it was less busy destroying russian peasekeeping forces and shelling Tshinval and actually think about possible russian retaliation.
Yes. Roki Tunnel is the only lifeline linking S. Ossetia to Russia, nasty road through mountain pass being abandoned after Tunnel's completion in mid-1990s and largely impassable for vehicular traffic. What's more important, mountains are too high to be overflown by loaded helicopters and there's no landing strip in N. Ossetia suitable for heavy transport planes. Severing the tunnel would essentially destroy Russian ability to fight land war in the region and, as we know from Yugoslavian example, air power could only do so much against determined land force. Russians would have to conduct it's bombing campaign against backdrop of unbelievably hostile public opinion, which would have seizures over each real or invented Russian crime (if there ever be shortage of real ones, wich term "crime" interpreted as "each bomb falling on Georgia"). This environment would make sustained bombing campaign suicidal for Russian leadership and Russia would have to pull out.
On more general note, there're preciously few land links between Russia and Georgia (one more to be exact) which could sustain any logistical load worth talking about. So, if assault through Abkhaz territory or landing on Georgian shore is possible, land invasion is very tricky.
There would be much disappointment in Russia and further loss of prestige internationally (but probably less harsh reaction, maybe even "let's pretend that nothing happened").
Very likely. Attacking Russian peacekeepers and indiscriminate firing of Katyusha rockets at their protectees is not the stuff world media are willing to notice.
Georgia gets free hands in Abhasia too. Abhasia may lose any faith in Russian help and become willing to accept Georgian terms without fight (but again it may not).
I would not be betting on Abkhazia's losing heart here. It is very different case. S. Ossetia, with it's tiny population, crazy borders (those guys went to a great pain to exclude most of Georgian-populated villages from the territory they lay claim on) and underdeveloped infrastructure, can notsurvive without Russian protection. Abkhazia, on the flip side, won it's independence with nothing more than very limited arms supplies from Russia (Georgia inherited infinitely more equipment from the Soviet Army). They have defensible borders, rail and sea link to Russia, and mountains are much lower here, so war against them can not be won by a single brazen attack the way war against S. Ossetia can.
With the ongoing civilian traffic, Georgia could not risk collapsing that tunnel.
Collapsing the tunnel would be almost impossible without establishing control over it first, and, if you control it, why demolish? However, I don't think that fears over civilian deaths were very high among Georgian leadership, who started the war with Grad attack of sleeping civilian neighborhoods in the middle of the night.
 

Susano

Banned
Yes. Roki Tunnel is the only lifeline linking S. Ossetia to Russia, nasty road through mountain pass being abandoned after Tunnel's completion in mid-1990s and largely impassable for vehicular traffic. What's more important, mountains are too high to be overflown by loaded helicopters and there's no landing strip in N. Ossetia suitable for heavy transport planes. Severing the tunnel would essentially destroy Russian ability to fight land war in the region
Eh, seeing how quickly the Georgian Navy was gutted, I do think Russia could have landed forces in Abchasia. Of course, that would be nasty on several levels - in that scenario the Russians would have had to fight on Georgian proper territory to get Tiflis to back down, and also it would have been a longer campaign. And the political headaches of such actions being mounted from Sevastopol!
 
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