Fw 187 introduced in service

[Nell_Lucifer]

So, I have just one timeline, that I've been planning out for years, with a PoD (Raeder dies instead of Wever) that leads to a slightly better LW. I'm not sure if I'll ever actually write much of it, but I do have a bunch of details sketched out, including some LW production numbers.

Curious about two things, who succeeds Raeder? As Donitz was not qualified enough at this point in time for the position? Marshall perhaps? And what happens with Wever's heavy bomber focus?

At one point, I spent a bunch of time researching LW aircraft and deciding which models would get built or not, and how many. I tried to balance additions and deletions to keep the amount materials used realistic. It's still work in progress (like all my work, I rarely finish things...). And actually, the thread you started a few weeks ago, @tomo pauk, about LW day fighters, helped me finally make up my mind to put the Fw 187 into production.

I see it keeping pretty closely to the LR escort fighter role, along with some long range recon, etc. Maybe something like naval patrol in the extended Kanalkampf. They weren't built for long, as the weaknesses of twin-engine fighters became clear pretty quickly. About 1200 manufactured total.

They serve fairly well in the Battle of Britain, although with lots of casualties. I'm not sure where else they'll end up fighting - somewhere on the eastern front, likely as not.

Honestly, the 187 would probably fare better than the 110 in the Battle of Britain, certainly less casualties than the 110 at that. Also, is your TL FW 187 single seat or twin seat? You could certainly turn the 187 post BoB into a dedicated ground attacker, it is of similar size to the Hs 129 and there were proposals OTL to equip the plane with a 1000 kg bomb or multiple bomb racks.

The Hs 129B was forced into production against the wishes of the Luftwaffe pilots and Henschel engineers as they lacked a dedicated ground attacker, if the 187 fills that role in this timeline you could get the much better P.76 dedicated attacker instead.

 

[Caledon]

See here for a pretty lackluster 2-engined fighter

Yes, I know that there were some capable 2-engine fighters. I was just trying to allude to the general fact that single-engine fighters were more maneuverable and could generally tear up twin-engines in a dogfight.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I'm more than satisfied with Fw 187 being 1st and foremost a high-performance day fighter. If it can do other jobs - good. If not, use some other aircraft type.
Wrt. 'zentral anlage' outfitted fighters - how many kills they made? Why go for the most complex, heaviest and most expensive layout when a good S/C does the same?

That was the same thinking that Wolfram von Richthofen had.
In contrast, Goering and Udet want a multitasker that could do everything.
Which led to the Ju 88 being severely delayed in its production process, and the flaming trainwreck called the He 177.

There was no Fw 187 around when the Bf 110 was chosen.
With Fw 187 in production, the Bf 110 production can be toned down by a good size.

Actually, you're wrong.
"By luck (and pressure by Ernst Udet), the Ministry of Aviation reconsidered the ideas of the Kampfzerstörer and began focusing on the Zerstörer. Due to these changes, the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke design better fitted the Ministry's requests. On 12 May 1936, Rudolf Opitz flew the first Bf 110 out of Augsburg.[6] But, as many pre-war designs found, the engine technologies promised were not up to acceptable reliability standards. Even with the temperamental DB 600 engines, the Ministry of Aviation found that the Bf 110, while not as maneuverable as desired, was rather faster than its original request specified, as well as faster than the then-current front line fighter, the Bf 109 B-1. Thus the order for four pre-production A-0 units was placed. The first of these were delivered in January 1937. During this testing, both the Focke-Wulf Fw 187 and Henschel Hs 124 competitors were rejected and the Bf 110 was ordered into full production."

Messerschmitt Bf 110 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AKA Udet killed the Fw 187 Falke. And then he killed himself.

So, I have just one timeline, that I've been planning out for years, with a PoD (Raeder dies instead of Wever) that leads to a slightly better LW. I'm not sure if I'll ever actually write much of it, but I do have a bunch of details sketched out, including some LW production numbers.

In my Red Baron survives trilogy (aka the Reich Trilogy), the Fw 187 is chosen because Goering died in WW1 instead of Manfred, and with the Red Baron in charge, his cousin Wolfram remains head of research and development while Udet is given a Jagdgeschwader.

At one point, I spent a bunch of time researching LW aircraft and deciding which models would get built or not, and how many. I tried to balance additions and deletions to keep the amount materials used realistic. It's still work in progress (like all my work, I rarely finish things...). And actually, the thread you started a few weeks ago, @tomo pauk, about LW day fighters, helped me finally make up my mind to put the Fw 187 into production.

I see it keeping pretty closely to the LR escort fighter role, along with some long range recon, etc. Maybe something like naval patrol in the extended Kanalkampf. They weren't built for long, as the weaknesses of twin-engine fighters became clear pretty quickly. About 1200 manufactured total.

They serve fairly well in the Battle of Britain, although with lots of casualties. I'm not sure where else they'll end up fighting - somewhere on the eastern front, likely as not.

The Fw 187 could have been the German equivalent of the Westland Whirlwind or P-38 Lightning.

And it would have been highly effective.

A Jagdgeschwader of Fw 187s based in the Bay of Biscay area, from the southern parts to Brest would massacre any British ASW aircraft that ventured forth.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

AKA Udet killed the Fw 187 Falke. And then he killed himself.

Well, technically he killed the 187 as a single seat fighter as he awarded Tank a few development contracts for a two-seat variant.

 

[tomo pauk]

Actually, you're wrong.
"By luck (and pressure by Ernst Udet), the Ministry of Aviation reconsidered the ideas of the Kampfzerstörer and began focusing on the Zerstörer. Due to these changes, the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke design better fitted the Ministry's requests. On 12 May 1936, Rudolf Opitz flew the first Bf 110 out of Augsburg.[6] But, as many pre-war designs found, the engine technologies promised were not up to acceptable reliability standards. Even with the temperamental DB 600 engines, the Ministry of Aviation found that the Bf 110, while not as maneuverable as desired, was rather faster than its original request specified, as well as faster than the then-current front line fighter, the Bf 109 B-1. Thus the order for four pre-production A-0 units was placed. The first of these were delivered in January 1937. During this testing, both the Focke-Wulf Fw 187 and Henschel Hs 124 competitors were rejected and the Bf 110 was ordered into full production."

That will depend on what one reads. Eg. German-language Wikipedia says that Fw 57 was the competitor for the Zerstorer program, not the Fw 187.

 

[Caledon]

Curious about two things, who succeeds Raeder? As Donitz was not qualified enough at this point in time for the position? Marshall perhaps?

Alright, this will probably sound crazy, but bear with me - Goering.
Seriously.
To get the story to go where I was aiming for, I had to do something about the hostility between the KM and LW. Which is why Raeder had to go. After that, I forget how I landed on the idea of putting Goering in charge of both services, but it's been part of the outline for a long time. In world, Hitler did it as a way to solidify his control of the service by putting his close lackey in charge.

And what happens with Wever's heavy bomber focus?

Not all that much, really. The Do 19 enters service, but not in big numbers - less than 100 overall. And he keeps Udet out of the Technical Office, so the He 177 is a normal 4-engine bomber.

Honestly, the 187 would probably fare better than the 110 in the Battle of Britain, certainly less casualties than the 110 at that.

Agreed.

Also, is your TL FW 187 single seat or twin seat?

I think it would be the single seat, since Udet never gets into the Technical Office to mess it up.

You could certainly turn the 187 post BoB into a dedicated ground attacker, it is of similar size to the Hs 129 and there were proposals OTL to equip the plane with a 1000 kg bomb or multiple bomb racks. The Hs 129B was forced into production against the wishes of the Luftwaffe pilots and Henschel engineers as they lacked a dedicated ground attacker, if the 187 fills that role in this timeline you could get the much better P.76 dedicated attacker instead.

An interesting idea. The 129 seems like an ugly half-baked solution to a particular set of circumstances. I imagine it's the kind of thing that might just never show up, once the butterflies get flapping.

That was the same thinking that Wolfram von Richthofen had.
In contrast, Goering and Udet want a multitasker that could do everything.
Which led to the Ju 88 being severely delayed in its production process, and the flaming trainwreck called the He 177.

Yep. Just keeping Udet out of the way makes a big difference.

In my Red Baron survives trilogy (aka the Reich Trilogy), the Fw 187 is chosen because Goering died in WW1 instead of Manfred, and with the Red Baron in charge, his cousin Wolfram remains head of research and development while Udet is given a Jagdgeschwader.

Interesting. I'll have to look that up when I have time for some reading. I did have Wolfram Richthofen take the post in the Condor Legion, because I think his experience there was an important part of developing the close air support that was vital to their early successful campaigns. But he keeps closer ties to the Tech.Office than in OTL.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Interesting. I'll have to look that up when I have time for some reading. I did have Wolfram Richthofen take the post in the Condor Legion, because I think his experience there was an important part of developing the close air support that was vital to their early successful campaigns. But he keeps closer ties to the Tech.Office than in OTL.

Goering's meddling was the Luftwaffe's Achilles heel and ultimately what killed it.
He hated technicians and scientists (Wolfgang Martini had a very bad working relationship with Goering, which led to a delay in Luftwaffe radars), was a rabid National Socialist who spent way to much time at Party functions, was a morphine addict, and had a penchant for appointing the wrong people in positions of power.

Wolfram's experience in the Kondor Legion was essential to the development of CAS in the Blitzkrieg.
But Goering rejected the successor he suggested when he left for Spain.

 

[marathag]

Yep. Just keeping Udet out of the way makes a big difference.

Possible lack of the Stuka, too.
When Udet was in the USA, he got the permission, and more importantly, the money for a pair of Curtiss Dive bombers from Fat Hermann for testing with the Technical Office

Take either away, and there is no dive bombing in Germany

 

[marathag]

Ju-87 under Udet's urging, was improved to be able to do 80 degree drives.
Heinkel He-118 was Wolfram von Richthofen's choice, which could only dive at 50 degrees. But he got bumped to leading the Condor Legion in Spain, leaving Udet in charge, who quickly picked the Junkers after he personally destroyed the -118 in dive testing, parachuting away to safety, again.
That guy parachuted a lot from aircraft he overstressed in dive testing.

Note: Richthofen also wanted twin engine Attacker aircraft to be able to do moderate dives, leading to that requirement in the Ju-88 and others.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Ju-87 under Udet's urging, was improved to be able to do 80 degree drives.
Heinkel He-118 was Wolfram von Richthofen's choice, which could only dive at 50 degrees. But he got bumped to leading the Condor Legion in Spain, leaving Udet in charge, who quickly picked the Junkers after he personally destroyed the -118 in dive testing, parachuting away to safety, again.
That guy parachuted a lot from aircraft he overstressed in dive testing.

Note: Richthofen also wanted twin engine Attacker aircraft to be able to do moderate dives, leading to that requirement in the Ju-88 and others.

It was Udet who gave the order, as Wolfram was already in Spain at the time.
"In October 1937 Generalluftzeugmeister Ernst Udet had ordered the development of the Ju 88 as a heavy dive bomber. This decision was influenced by the success of the Ju 87 Stuka in this role. The Junkers development center at Dessau gave priority to the study of pull-out systems and dive brakes.[13]"

Junkers Ju 88 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Although Richthofen had managed to prevent aircraft design from heading into mediocrity, and had kept them specialised for particular tasks, Udet still influenced the selection of the multi-purpose Messerschmitt Bf 110 and the Schnellbomber (fast bomber) designed Junkers Ju 88 by the end of 1936. With the Ju 88, he insisted it should have a dive bombing capability, although it was more suited to, and ideal for, the level bombing Schnellbomber concept.[20] By the autumn, 1936, Richthofen decided he had had enough of working with Udet, whose ideas he thought were totally wrong. With an expanding Luftwaffe and a civil war starting in Spain, an opportunity came for a field command.[21]"

"In November 1936, Richthofen left the Technical Service staff to take a field command in the Condor Legion, a Luftwaffe contingent sent to support General Francisco Franco's Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. Udet continued with the dive bomber concept and the Ju 87 first saw action under Richthofen's command in Spain. Wolfram retained his position as Head of Development, but he was now tasked with the evaluation of aircraft under operational conditions. His role expanded in January 1937, and he became Chief of Staff to Hugo Sperrle, who was to command the Legion.[22]"

Wolfram von Richthofen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was Udet's direct order for the Ju 88 to become a dive bomber.
Wolfram opposed him fiercely, and lost.

 

[Caledon]

Possible lack of the Stuka, too.
When Udet was in the USA, he got the permission, and more importantly, the money for a pair of Curtiss Dive bombers from Fat Hermann for testing with the Technical Office

Take either away, and there is no dive bombing in Germany

With a PoD on 3 June 1936, the dive bombing program and the Stuka were well underway already.

Udet . . . quickly picked the Junkers after he personally destroyed the -118 in dive testing, parachuting away to safety, again.

I had to go look this up, but it turns out that crash happened on 27 July 1936. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87

By March 1936, the second prototype, the V2, was finally fitted with the Jumo 210Aa engine, which a year later was replaced by a Jumo 210 G (W.Nr. 19310). The testing went well, and the pilot, Flight Captain Hesselbach, praised its performance. However, Wolfram von Richthofen, in charge of developing and testing new aircraft in the Technisches Amt, or Technical Service, told the Junkers representative and Construction Office chief engineer Ernst Zindel that the Ju 87 stood little chance of becoming the Luftwaffe's main dive bomber, as it was underpowered in his opinion. On 9 June 1936, the RLM ordered cessation of development in favour of the Heinkel He 118, a rival design. Udet cancelled the order the next day, and development continued.[15]

On 27 July 1936, Udet crashed the He 118 prototype, He 118 V1 D-UKYM.[16] That same day, Charles Lindbergh was visiting Ernst Heinkel, so Heinkel could only communicate with Udet by telephone. According to this version of the story, Heinkel warned Udet about the propeller's fragility. Udet failed to consider this, so in a dive, the engine oversped and the propeller broke away.[17] Immediately after this incident, Udet announced the Stuka the winner of the development contest.[16]

It was Udet who gave the order, as Wolfram was already in Spain at the time.
"In October 1937 Generalluftzeugmeister Ernst Udet had ordered the development of the Ju 88 as a heavy dive bomber. This decision was influenced by the success of the Ju 87 Stuka in this role. The Junkers development center at Dessau gave priority to the study of pull-out systems and dive brakes.[13]"

Junkers Ju 88 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Although Richthofen had managed to prevent aircraft design from heading into mediocrity, and had kept them specialised for particular tasks, Udet still influenced the selection of the multi-purpose Messerschmitt Bf 110 and the Schnellbomber (fast bomber) designed Junkers Ju 88 by the end of 1936. With the Ju 88, he insisted it should have a dive bombing capability, although it was more suited to, and ideal for, the level bombing Schnellbomber concept.[20] By the autumn, 1936, Richthofen decided he had had enough of working with Udet, whose ideas he thought were totally wrong. With an expanding Luftwaffe and a civil war starting in Spain, an opportunity came for a field command.[21]"

"In November 1936, Richthofen left the Technical Service staff to take a field command in the Condor Legion, a Luftwaffe contingent sent to support General Francisco Franco's Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. Udet continued with the dive bomber concept and the Ju 87 first saw action under Richthofen's command in Spain. Wolfram retained his position as Head of Development, but he was now tasked with the evaluation of aircraft under operational conditions. His role expanded in January 1937, and he became Chief of Staff to Hugo Sperrle, who was to command the Legion.[22]"

Wolfram von Richthofen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was Udet's direct order for the Ju 88 to become a dive bomber.
Wolfram opposed him fiercely, and lost.

Yep, it really seems that that power struggle made a serious difference in the way the LW developed. I envision that when Goering says someting about putting Udet into the Tech.Office, Wever is smart enough to see that would be bad, so he talks Goering into giving him a brand new post - Director of Flight Testing - where he does less damage than OTL.

This is how I justify saving the Ju 88 and He 177, and putting planes like the Hs 123C and the Lw 187 into production.

Getting back to the 187 a bit. It seems like one of the LW's flaws was the way they kept trying to make one model of plane do everything. I'd say the 187 is more specialized than the Bf 110, which is part of why it's better at the main role it was designed for (shooting other planes down, far away from where you took off).

 

[Leander]

Not only that, but the concept of the Zerstorer was prevalent among all major aircraft players - France, Britain, Soviet Union, Italy etc. - and technically, Germany did not get rid of the Zerstorer concept, they tried to upgrade or keep it afloat with newer designs (Me 410, Ju 88 also tried to fulfill a bunch of roles, so did the 188, the Me 262 also tried to fill in multi-role)

What do you see as the Zerstörer equivalents for the other nations? For France I can see the Br. 690 serie and the Potez 63 with very similiar in concept. The soviet union had the development that ultimately let to the Pe-2 and Pe-3. Britain had the Beaufighter, but from what I can gather that was never really intended as the sort of long range day fighter this thread is mostly about. For Italy (Br.88? but thats mainly a dive bomber) and the US (maaaybe the Airacuda?) I dont really see any planes that are destroyers either.

Getting back to the 187 a bit. It seems like one of the LW's flaws was the way they kept trying to make one model of plane do everything. I'd say the 187 is more specialized than the Bf 110, which is part of why it's better at the main role it was designed for (shooting other planes down, far away from where you took off).

I think the main difference in the sucess of multi-role designs during WW2 lies mainly in the number of roles they were developed for and how similiar these roles are. A fast light bomber and a recon aircraft for example require quite similiar designs, while long range day fighters and night interceptors are more dissimiliar. The Zerstörer fails as a concept mainly because it tries to be a competetive day fighter and several other things that require much larger aircraft (often with more crew) at the same time.

"In October 1937 Generalluftzeugmeister Ernst Udet had ordered the development of the Ju 88 as a heavy dive bomber. This decision was influenced by the success of the Ju 87 Stuka in this role. The Junkers development center at Dessau gave priority to the study of pull-out systems and dive brakes.[13]"

The germans early success and subsequent obsession with dive bombing really screwed them over in the long (or nat actually all that long) run, the idea to require a four engine heavy bomber like the He 177 to dive is just utterly myopic and even if they later on eased on these requirements again the damage was already done. I think getting away from this singular focus on dive bombing would absolutely do the LW overall a favour.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Britain had the Beaufighter, but from what I can gather that was never really intended as the sort of long range day fighter this thread is mostly about.

The Whirlwind is probably closer to the Zerstorer concept than the Beaufighter (which is basically a modified bomber) although its range isn't great..

 

[Leander]

The Whirlwind is probably closer to the Zerstorer concept than the Beaufighter (which is basically a modified bomber) although its range isn't great..

Ironically I see the whirlwind more as an analogue to the Falke, as its also single seat and lacks the defensive armament that is part of the core definition of a Zerstörer in the german sense. Its overall much closer to a "regular" heavy fighter (if a really heavily armed one for the timeframe).

 

[Petr K.]

Wolfram's experience in the Kondor Legion was essential to the development of CAS in the Blitzkrieg.

I think he was the best air commander the Luftwaffe ever had...
The man was good at almost everything he did. He had a technical education, so he understood the issue (unlike Udet) and did not promote political projects...
One of the best tacticians, Manstein respected him immensely when Wolfram von Richthofen was in charge of air support for his army, he never lost a battle...
When Wolfram von Richthofen was transferred to Italy, he personally intervened with Göring to return him to the Eastern Front, he wanted to have him with his army group.

 

[Gudestein]

Leaving the discussion on all the other developments of the POD. FW-187 starts of with Jumo211 and different factories than OTL leaving LW with a few less bombers, but FW-187 on top of Bf-110. Bf-110 is now preferred in the ground attack role. Its basically as in Michele’s “a better show”.
BoB plays out better for LW, more British killed, less Germans killed, but not wiping out RAF. No Sea Lion.
What then:
Bay of Biscay is a British grave yard
Barbarossa and North Africa campaigns Play out with continuous LW presence even when the panzers drives into the horisontal. Bf110 in ground attack, FW-187 the fighter and sometimes ground attack. Deep interdiction with low losses as well.
Its not a small change

 

[CB13]

Just reading the spec's, the FW187 appears to be roughly 20% lower weight than the BF110, so to introduce, maybe you need to clarify different roles. The BF110 is the more expensive destroyer and is used for longer-range fighter sweeps and ground targets behind the line of contact while the FW187 along with JU87 are assigned as Wehrmacht close support aircraft.

 

[BlackDragon98]

FW 187 and Ju 88 can fully replace the Bf 110 in all the roles that it served.

I don't see why something like the Bf 110 should be produced when it was inferior in all roles to more specialized aircraft.

Waste of resources.

Just reading the spec's, the FW187 appears to be roughly 20% lower weight than the BF110, so to introduce, maybe you need to clarify different roles. The BF110 is the more expensive destroyer and is used for longer-range fighter sweeps and ground targets behind the line of contact while the FW187 along with JU87 are assigned as Wehrmacht close support aircraft.

single seat FW 187 was even lighter, AFAIK.

and there's no need to clarify roles.

Just take a look at the P-38 Lightning.

Also, the Germans were well aware of turbochargers as well.

"The first commercial application of a turbocharger was in 1925, when Alfred Büchi successfully installed turbochargers on ten-cylinder diesel engines, increasing the power output from 1,300 to 1,860 kilowatts (1,750 to 2,500 hp).[15][16][17] This engine was used by the German Ministry of Transport for two large passenger ships called the Preussen and Hansestadt Danzig. The design was licensed to several manufacturers and turbochargers began to be used in marine, railcar and large stationary applications.[13]"

Turbocharger - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A turbocharged FW 187 would become the German equivalent of the P-38.

 

[tomo pauk]

Just reading the spec's, the FW187 appears to be roughly 20% lower weight than the BF110, so to introduce, maybe you need to clarify different roles. The BF110 is the more expensive destroyer and is used for longer-range fighter sweeps and ground targets behind the line of contact while the FW187 along with JU87 are assigned as Wehrmacht close support aircraft.

Fw 187 was a long range fighter. Meaning that there is no need for the Bf 110.
Short-range fighter duties are more than covered by Bf 109.

...
Also, the Germans were well aware of turbochargers as well.

"The first commercial application of a turbocharger was in 1925, when Alfred Büchi successfully installed turbochargers on ten-cylinder diesel engines, increasing the power output from 1,300 to 1,860 kilowatts (1,750 to 2,500 hp).[15][16][17] This engine was used by the German Ministry of Transport for two large passenger ships called the Preussen and Hansestadt Danzig. The design was licensed to several manufacturers and turbochargers began to be used in marine, railcar and large stationary applications.[13]"

Turbocharger - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A turbocharged FW 187 would become the German equivalent of the P-38.

A DB 601 and later DB 605 powered Fw 187 is already the equivalent of the P-38, no turbos needed.

 

[Gudestein]

As far as I understand it Bf110 was actually a quite capable fighter bomber and likely in this role more survivable than JU-88? I can imagine FW-187/Bf-110 combinations attacking air fields from the border to Moscow or strike as a long range torpedo bomber in the western approaches.