Fw 187 introduced in service

[tomo pauk]

A topic of many what-ifs
For the sake of discussion, lets have Luftwaffe accepting the FW's proposal for the Fw 187A as a long-range escort. Type was outfitted with two Jumo 210G engines (670 HP at 3700-3900m without the ram effect), with fuel in protected tanks with capacity of 1100L total. Obviously the upgrades and modifications will be needed for further service.
Nix any German aircraft project (or more of them) you deem necessary in order for the Fw 187 is in service, 1939-45.

 

[Gudestein]

While most would’ve like to replace the Bf110, they fill different if overlapping roles. So, by 1939 several plants produce Bf110’s and it’s entirely possible there is just fewer of each. If we consider it staying for a while with Jumo and moving to Jumo211 it might be an add on to existing numbers. FW and underutilized manufacturers like BV and Henschel would get the orders, as Bf110 got its contracts before. This would be close to ideal as we now have a high performance fighter and a bomber with long range.

 

[tomo pauk]

Me 210 should be axed ASAP.
Bf 110 gets the Jumo 211s after the 210s so it is a worthwhile LR recon bird, with production by only one factory for night-fighting job from 1941 on (still with Jumo engines). Fw still makes the Fw 190, but no Ta 154 development as we know it*.

Bf 110 manufacturers that might be making the Fw 187 instead: Gotha (they made about 45% or 110s produced), FW (yes, even they were making some 110s, under 350 pcs), MIAG, Luther-Werke Braunschweig.
(Fw 190 manufacturing was undertaken at FW's 'satellite complex' NE of Berlin, by AGO, by Fieseler, by Arado, by Dornier North; also by four other sites that made about 1000 Fw 190s between themselves)

Possible alternative engines for the Fw 187 include DB 601/605, Jumo 211, HS-12Y (Czech production before mid-1940, later the better French types). G&R 14N for a fighter bomber, torpedo-bomber, tank buster, with 14R following suit (should be lighter than the BMW 801, thus easier to install and less of a handful for the pilot).

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

You are not going to have the Bf 110 replaced by any variant of the FW 187 any time soon, given that the 187 was viewed at best as an intermediary between the 110 and 109, which was true. The FW 187 was considered as a light fighter (a twin-engine one but nonetheless a light fighter), not a multi-role that the Bf 110 was, let alone that the 187 doesn't fit the Zerstorer requirements in the first place.

The FW 187 in this scenario as a long range escort fighter would have to be the single seat variant which should free up enough space for both photo-reconnaissance and a heavier armament of 2 MG FFs and 2 MG 17s - comparable to the Bf 109 E-3 and He 112 B, perhaps it will be able to get 4 MG FFs or MG204s a bit later on, but I doubt it will end up with more than 1 or 2 30 mm.

Anyway. I see the 187 following an initial reconnaissance, long-range escort fighter duty, later on followed by a fighter-bomber duty (with a 1000 kg bomb or a 500 kg bomb and 2 x 250 bombs) with more powerful engines (Bramo 323 or BMW 801 when they become available?) before ending up carrying anti-tank duties at the behest of the Luftwaffe in 1941 (in this case, the Hs 129A is canned until the much larger Henschel P.76 is ready for production) with either the 3.7 cannon, 3cm MK101 cannon or the 5 cm cannon (not sure if the 187 platform could carry the 7.5 cm cannon, but with no second seat the rotary magazine might fit given that both planes - Hs 129 - are of similar dimensions) and eventually, it is replaced by a 187/154 hybrid or 154 analogue that can fit the requirement of a night-fighter/high speed interceptor with Jumo 213A or DB605 engines.

 

[tomo pauk]

You are not going to have the Bf 110 replaced by any variant of the FW 187 any time soon,

Premise of the thread is that Fw 187 is adopted, with free hand to remove/cancel/reduce what people see fit.

let alone that the 187 doesn't fit the Zerstorer requirements in the first place.

How so?

The FW 187 in this scenario as a long range escort fighter would have to be the single seat variant which should free up enough space for both photo-reconnaissance and a heavier armament of 2 MG FFs and 2 MG 17s - comparable to the Bf 109 E-3 and He 112 B, perhaps it will be able to get 4 MG FFs or MG204s a bit later on, but I doubt it will end up with more than 1 or 2 30 mm.

2-seater from the get go, no photo equipment for that job.
I'd start with two MG C30/L cannons, each with 100 rd ammo box, later upgrade with MG 151/20, plus 2-4 LMGs. Or perhaps no LMGs, while carrying the 3rd cannon under the belly.
Two MK 101/103 as a bomber buster come 1943.

 

[thaddeus]

Me 210 should be axed ASAP.
Bf 110 gets the Jumo 211s after the 210s so it is a worthwhile LR recon bird, with production by only one factory for night-fighting job from 1941 on (still with Jumo engines). Fw still makes the Fw 190, but no Ta 154 development as we know it*.

an interesting scenario could be the 210 performs per historical and FW revives the FW-187 instead of the new TA-154 project, it could even incorporate aspects of the TA-154 design as the Tego Film factory was not bombed until 1943?

the larger picture is that the ME-210 and HE-177, both associated with Udet are buried also, those manufacturers could rebound with Zwilling versions of the 109 & 111 respectively.

it seems logical to me that with the FW-187 in production, along with improved version(s) of the 110, the HE-219 never appears, and that Heinkel could develop an alt.AR-234 recon/bomber

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I think the most significant change will be that it removes the need for JU88's to be used as night fighters rather than bombers. How much difference having extra bombers will make though is another question.

 

[tomo pauk]

an interesting scenario could be the 210 performs per historical and FW revives the FW-187 instead of the new TA-154 project, it could even incorporate aspects of the TA-154 design as the Tego Film factory was not bombed until 1943?
the larger picture is that the ME-210 and HE-177, both associated with Udet are buried also, those manufacturers could rebound with Zwilling versions of the 109 & 111 respectively.
it seems logical to me that with the FW-187 in production, along with improved version(s) of the 110, the HE-219 never appears, and that Heinkel could develop an alt.AR-234 recon/bomber

German new 2-engined fighters ('standard' and/or heavy and/or night fighters) have had really a hard time to bear fruit past 1940.
Arado's designs went nowhere, the Ta 154 was designed with a wrong material in mind, the He 219 was with better luck but still produced in meager numbers, Me 210 and 410 were merely a footnote in ww2 aerial warfare, Do 335 was too late, Fw 187 with DB 605s or BMW 801s never flew (it was basically a whole new aircraft vs. the 187 that actually flew).

That left to the Bf 110 and Ju 88 to hold the fort, even if they were actually only useful for bomber killing is the RAF's intruders were not around. They did a good job considering how few of these was available in any given day of the war, and how much they were slowed down in the NF role.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

How so?

Well, firstly, because it wasn't supposed to from its inception? The Zerstorer bid by FW was the 57 which ended up being a failure. The 187 was designed from the ground up as a light fighter, it was only later on that Kurt tried to transform it into a Zerstorer that fell off short of the 110's capabilities.

There were 2 initial requirements for a Zerstorer, a 1934 one and a 1935/36 one, which both require forward and rear facing (movable) cannons, a 500 kg bomb load (internal bomb bay got canned in the 35 revision) and 3 crew members. (though 2 was eventually accepted as being enough) So, you will have the problem of missing a 500 kg bomb load and a rear gunner - which FW tried to rectify in a remote controlled gun turret version akin to the Me 410 but it would have made the plane heavier, less aerodynamic and too cramped.

2-seater from the get go, no photo equipment for that job.
I'd start with two MG C30/L cannons, each with 100 rd ammo box, later upgrade with MG 151/20, plus 2-4 LMGs. Or perhaps no LMGs, while carrying the 3rd cannon under the belly.
Two MK 101/103 as a bomber buster come 1943.

Then you are going to have a very cramped aircraft that can perform even less specialized missions.

I think the most significant change will be that it removes the need for JU88's to be used as night fighters rather than bombers. How much difference having extra bombers will make though is another question.

The Fw 187 doesn't have the space needed for the radar equipment required for the night fighting role. (And even if you somehow managed to fit it in the nose you will have very short antennas because of the rather small distance between the propellers.

 

[tomo pauk]

There were 2 initial requirements for a Zerstorer, a 1934 one and a 1935/36 one, which both require forward and rear facing (movable) cannons, a 500 kg bomb load (internal bomb bay got canned in the 35 revision) and 3 crew members. (though 2 was eventually accepted as being enough) So, you will have the problem of missing a 500 kg bomb load and a rear gunner - which FW tried to rectify in a remote controlled gun turret version akin to the Me 410 but it would have made the plane heavier, less aerodynamic and too cramped.

No bomb bay worked for the 110, it will work here, too. 2 crew members - check. Rear gun was specced for the Fw 187A:



500 kg bomb - attach it, less of a problem to carry it than with Bf 109E.

Then you are going to have a very cramped aircraft that can perform even less specialized missions.

I'm not sure what are the 'even less specialized missions'.
1st specialization IMO should have been that of a high-performance long-range day fighter.

 

[Leander]

Well, firstly, because it wasn't supposed to from its inception? The Zerstorer bid by FW was the 57 which ended up being a failure. The 187 was designed from the ground up as a light fighter, it was only later on that Kurt tried to transform it into a Zerstorer that fell off short of the 110's capabilities.

There were 2 initial requirements for a Zerstorer, a 1934 one and a 1935/36 one, which both require forward and rear facing (movable) cannons, a 500 kg bomb load (internal bomb bay got canned in the 35 revision) and 3 crew members. (though 2 was eventually accepted as being enough) So, you will have the problem of missing a 500 kg bomb load and a rear gunner - which FW tried to rectify in a remote controlled gun turret version akin to the Me 410 but it would have made the plane heavier, less aerodynamic and too cramped.

The problem is that the Zerstörer concept itself is deeply flawed, but the germans did not really have an opportunity to really notice that before it was too late for a major course correction on design and procurement. The idea looks valid in the interwar years when an aircrafts performance is mostly limited by engine power, but later on when aerodynamics start to become more of decisive factor the Zerstörer just ceases to be usable in the long range and heavy fighter role as evidenced by the battle of britain.
To get something like the 187 to replace the Bf 110 in all or at least the majority of roles the germans would have to decide to abandon the essentially multi-role Zerstörer concept way earlier and "untangle" the long range fighter and light bomber roles from the beginning.
The other roles (recon and night fighting) can essentially be filled about equally well by the 187 and 110 or taken over by other aircraft so they are of somewhat secondary concern.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The Fw 187 doesn't have the space needed for the radar equipment required for the night fighting role. (And even if you somehow managed to fit it in the nose you will have very short antennas because of the rather small distance between the propellers.

German engineers and scientists are generally considered pretty competent and are perfectly capable of designing a system to fit the aircraft. It's not like they have a pre existing A.I. radar as Germany had none before 1941.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

No bomb bay worked for the 110, it will work here, too. 2 crew members - check. Rear gun was specced for the Fw 187A:
500 kg bomb - attach it, less of a problem to carry it than with Bf 109E.

I did not say it did not work for the 110, but the 110 was the closest to meet the requirements. Perhaps the rear gun was specified for the 187A, but the 9 or so built clearly did not posses it.

I'm not sure what are the 'even less specialized missions'.
1st specialization IMO should have been that of a high-performance long-range day fighter.

Reconnaissance, high altitude interception (space for the 3rd engine used as a generator), anti-tank role (you need space in the fuselage for the rotary magazine of anything bigger than 3.7 cm)

The problem is that the Zerstörer concept itself is deeply flawed, but the germans did not really have an opportunity to really notice that before it was too late for a major course correction on design and procurement. The idea looks valid in the interwar years when an aircrafts performance is mostly limited by engine power, but later on when aerodynamics start to become more of decisive factor the Zerstörer just ceases to be usable in the long range and heavy fighter role as evidenced by the battle of britain.
To get something like the 187 to replace the Bf 110 in all or at least the majority of roles the germans would have to decide to abandon the essentially multi-role Zerstörer concept way earlier and "untangle" the long range fighter and light bomber roles from the beginning.
The other roles (recon and night fighting) can essentially be filled about equally well by the 187 and 110 or taken over by other aircraft so they are of somewhat secondary concern.

Not only that, but the concept of the Zerstorer was prevalent among all major aircraft players - France, Britain, Soviet Union, Italy etc. - and technically, Germany did not get rid of the Zerstorer concept, they tried to upgrade or keep it afloat with newer designs (Me 410, Ju 88 also tried to fulfill a bunch of roles, so did the 188, the Me 262 also tried to fill in multi-role)

German engineers and scientists are generally considered pretty competent and are perfectly capable of designing a system to fit the aircraft. It's not like they have a pre existing A.I. radar as Germany had none before 1941.

They tried and they failed OTL, and honestly, there's no point in wasting money on a smaller radio set and antenna when you can fit the already existing one in multiple, already in production airplanes. (Bf 110, Ju 88, Do 215/217, Ta 154, Me 262 etc)

 

[tomo pauk]

Reconnaissance, high altitude interception (space for the 3rd engine used as a generator), anti-tank role (you need space in the fuselage for the rotary magazine of anything bigger than 3.7 cm)

I'm more than satisfied with Fw 187 being 1st and foremost a high-performance day fighter. If it can do other jobs - good. If not, use some other aircraft type.
Wrt. 'zentral anlage' outfitted fighters - how many kills they made? Why go for the most complex, heaviest and most expensive layout when a good S/C does the same?

I did not say it did not work for the 110, but the 110 was the closest to meet the requirements. Perhaps the rear gun was specified for the 187A, but the 9 or so built clearly did not posses it.

There was no Fw 187 around when the Bf 110 was chosen.
With Fw 187 in production, the Bf 110 production can be toned down by a good size.

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

The 110's recon, interception, light/medium bombing and night fighting roles can be done by the Ju 88 with likely minimal penalties; that leaves a 187-sized niche for a long-range fighter and jabo.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

I'm more than satisfied with Fw 187 being 1st and foremost a high-performance day fighter. If it can do other jobs - good. If not, use some other aircraft type.
Wrt. 'zentral anlage' outfitted fighters - how many kills they made? Why go for the most complex, heaviest and most expensive layout when a good S/C does the same?

Then why do you want it as a two seater then? If its 1st and most important role is a high-performance day fighter than adding the second pilot seems counterproductive to achieve that. I concede the point about the HZ-Anlage system, though I am not sure if 1940 S/Cs or engine performance are mature enough as they also have to keep the cabin pressurized and heated. With the HZ-Anlage you could add a small engine that acts as a generator for the whole plane - which the S/C could also do but again, I am unsure if by 1940 it was mature enough for the role.

There was no Fw 187 around when the Bf 110 was chosen.
With Fw 187 in production, the Bf 110 production can be toned down by a good size.

It is still no Bf 110 replacement to require a decrease in production. The Luftwaffe in 1939 needed around 980 Bf 110s... and they received around 200... and there's also the political factor to consider - Willy Messerschmitt -> Might result into a working Me 210 (As the most important reason why it failed was the hired Arado wing designers which might not happen if Willy is feeling his 110 position threatened by the 187 in 1938/39)

I honestly see the 187 as a mediocre aircraft, good as a long range escort but little else while with two pilots. I doubt it will soldier on till 1943, let alone 1945, you might get an 'upgraded' 187 that in truth is a whole new aircraft (Ta 154) that can be the 110's replacement (if the 210 or 410 is a failure) and successful Hs 129B of the Eastern Front air campaign (later to be replaced by the P.76)

 

[tomo pauk]

Then why do you want it as a two seater then? If its 1st and most important role is a high-performance day fighter than adding the second pilot seems counterproductive to achieve that. I concede the point about the HZ-Anlage system, though I am not sure if 1940 S/Cs or engine performance are mature enough as they also have to keep the cabin pressurized and heated. With the HZ-Anlage you could add a small engine that acts as a generator for the whole plane - which the S/C could also do but again, I am unsure if by 1940 it was mature enough for the role.

Backseater can be used for serving the long-range radio (these are bigger and more complicated than simple radios found on a fighter of the day); extra pair of eyes to warn pilots of enemy aircraft in enemy airspace; rear gunner.
Attaching a bigger impeller on the DB 601A should do the trick wrt. improvement of high-altitude performance. Increase of RPM above the rated height from 2400 to 2600 rpm can be tested and implemented a few months earlier than it was historically the case - a major boost to the high-altitude performance.
See here.
Fw 187 has two engines, meaning that it can have better power-to-weight ratio than a 1-engined fighter of the day.
Cabine pressurization for 1940?

It is still no Bf 110 replacement to require a decrease in production. The Luftwaffe in 1939 needed around 980 Bf 110s... and they received around 200... and there's also the political factor to consider - Willy Messerschmitt -> Might result into a working Me 210 (As the most important reason why it failed was the hired Arado wing designers which might not happen if Willy is feeling his 110 position threatened by the 187 in 1938/39)

IMO, it is certainly a replacement for the Bf 110 in it's most important tasks - taking down enemy aircraft, regardless of the aircraft type or location. Everything else can be covered by other aircraft types.

I honestly see the 187 as a mediocre aircraft, good as a long range escort but little else while with two pilots. I doubt it will soldier on till 1943, let alone 1945, you might get an 'upgraded' 187 that in truth is a whole new aircraft (Ta 154) that can be the 110's replacement (if the 210 or 410 is a failure) and successful Hs 129B of the Eastern Front air campaign (later to be replaced by the P.76)

Being a good long range escort is not a small accomplishment - that type of aircraft was specifically what LW lacked in second half of 1940, and ithey paid the price for that. Being a twin-engined A/C also much improves the weapon layout, that will come in handy once the Il-2s and B-17s need killing.
I could not care less if the Fw 187 is not perfect night fighter, or ground attack aircraft.

 

[Caledon]

So, I have just one timeline, that I've been planning out for years, with a PoD (Raeder dies instead of Wever) that leads to a slightly better LW. I'm not sure if I'll ever actually write much of it, but I do have a bunch of details sketched out, including some LW production numbers.

At one point, I spent a bunch of time researching LW aircraft and deciding which models would get built or not, and how many. I tried to balance additions and deletions to keep the amount materials used realistic. It's still work in progress (like all my work, I rarely finish things...). And actually, the thread you started a few weeks ago, @tomo pauk, about LW day fighters, helped me finally make up my mind to put the Fw 187 into production.

I see it keeping pretty closely to the LR escort fighter role, along with some long range recon, etc. Maybe something like naval patrol in the extended Kanalkampf. They weren't built for long, as the weaknesses of twin-engine fighters became clear pretty quickly. About 1200 manufactured total.

They serve fairly well in the Battle of Britain, although with lots of casualties. I'm not sure where else they'll end up fighting - somewhere on the eastern front, likely as not.

 

[tomo pauk]

They weren't built for long, as the weaknesses of twin-engine fighters became clear pretty quickly.

See here for a pretty lackluster 2-engined fighter

 

[Draconis]

See here for a pretty lackluster 2-engined fighter

And here is another feeble and weak twin-engined fighter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning