French vs Italian navies World War 2, who would win?

Who would win in an all out Jutland style battle without any other navies involved?
Ok, so I'm going to assume this is in roughly early 1940, so no Vittorio Veneto's or Richelieu's.
Carriers:
France-CV Bearn-roughly equal to HMS Eagle, aircraft aren't great, but Italians (presumably) don't have fighter cover so...
Capital Ships:
Italy-BB 2 Caio Duilio, 2 Conte di Cavour-fast (27ish knots), well enough armed, but poorly armored)
France
BB 3 Bretagne-slow (<20 knots), better armed than Italian BB's, worse armored
BC 2 Dunkerque-fast (29ish knots), decent guns, ok armor
Cruisers:
Italy
CA 4 Zara-possibly the best CA
CA 2 Trento, 1 Bolzano-fast, well armed, but terrible armor
CL 6 Cardona/Giussano-fast, can kill super DD's, but will be curbstomped by a real cruiser
CL 4 D'Aosta/Monteccuoli-slower, can stand up to most CL's, about average
CL 2 Abruzzi-best Italian CL's
France
CA 2 Duquesne-same as Italian Trento
CA 4 Suffren-better Duquesne, not great
CA 1 Algerie-most agree best WW2 CA
CL 3 Duguay-Trouin-better Cardona
CL 1 Emile Bertin-better Cardona
CL 6 La Galissioniere-same level as Abruzzi
Torpedo-Equipped Vessels
Italy
Most of the 56 DD have 4-4.7"/120mm guns, 6-21"/533mm TT, and are pretty fast
32 old TB-WW1 DD's, deathtraps
36 Spica class TB-not great at ship v ship, but there are a lot of them
France
C-T's-26 of them-have long ranged, powerful guns for a DD, are very fast, pretty effective vs other DD's during the day, but at night, the Italian DD can use numerical superiority and faster training, more reliable, and faster firing guns to their advantage
DD(6 Chacal, 26L'Adroit/Bourrasque)-also unreliable, slow firing, slow training guns, WW1 cruiser speed, can't take much damage

Overall
Bearn gives the French an advantage if no land-based AC, other wise, no
French have 5-4 capital ship advantage, but 2 are fast and 3 are slow
French have better cruisers
French DD's probably win in daytime, but despite Italian prowess at night combat during WW2(;)), if they try a swarm attack at night like iirc was planned prewar, they could probably overwhelm the French DD's

I'd say whoever gets luckiest
 
A very good book on the World War II navies, comparing such things as radar, ordnance, aircraft, etc is from Vincent P. O'Hara On Seas Contested: The Seven Great Navies of the Second World War. I would recommend it, and also note he has a similar volume on the navies of World War I.

Italy for decades was countering France with a smaller, faster fleet. This was still the case in World War 2, though the Italian naval expansion was bringing things closer. Always cash strapped thanks to the Fascist handling of the economy, the RM abandoned night fighting training in the interwar period because of finances. However, they had the first iteration of what would become the Gufo (owl) radar in 1936-37. The program was historically put on hold in 1941 due to finances, but could well continue in a war just against France. We might see operational deployment in 1941-early 1942 with full funding.

For a Jutland style engagement, I would say it depends on when it occurs, as well as the larger geopolitical situation.

Geopolitically, where is the World War at? Does France have a commitment in the Atlantic countering Germany? If so, how is the fleet divided between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean? Or is this just a Mediterranean War in the World War 2 era?

In 1940, both fleets are still building up. The Italians will gain the advantage that year, with both Veneto and Littorio completing, as well as the second pair of rebuilds. If something occurs in 1943, the MN should have Richelieu, Jean Bart possibly Joffre in the OOB. I would expect the French to be fielding American planes, Douglas DB-7s (A-20), Glenn Martin 167 (A-22, Maryland in RAF service) on land, Curtiss SBC Helldiver (the biplane), Vought V-156F (SB2U Vindicator) and probably Brewster 339 (Buffalo) and Grumman G-36A (Wildcat minus the supercharger) at sea. I would expect the RA to be fielding the historical Italian types, and I have my doubts as to whether they would look to Germany for a dive bomber, or even adopt the tactic unless experience would dictate it. If Aquila is completed in time for action, I would expect her to have the Reggiane Re 2000 Falco. The Falco was a difficult plane to maintain and fly, so that might impact Aquila's effectiveness as a carrier.

France's fear in most of the interwar period for a war with Italy was the RM would cut France from her North African colonies with growing power of the RM's heavy cruiser fleet. Rene Greger points out in his battleship book, Dunquerque was as much a reaction to the growing Italian cruiser fleet as to the panzarshciffe. Certainly, any ship that can kill a panzarshciffe can kill a heavy cruiser. And while both Dunquerque and Strasbourg are good ships (the latter has better armor and flag facilities), if matched against all four of the Italian rebuilds, I would expect the N-squared law to be in effect.

The French concern with the heavy cruisers was because the RM dreadnoughts were just that; useless, 21 knot, 12in armed dreadnoughts, in and out of reserve for training roles and near useless in modern warfare. The rebuild took those ships and turned them into modern combatants that even most capital ships could not ignore. More importantly, the rebuilds occupied drydocks, not valuable building slips.

The Italian heavy cruisers were essentially two three-ship units of homogeneous ships. The Zaras were heavily armored, while the Trentos and Bolzano were more lightly armored and faster. The MN ships were more of a hodgepodge, even within a class; Dupliex had over 500 tons more armor than the name-ship of her class, Suffren. Even if France is not overrun, I have my doubts as to whether the St. Louis class (14,000 ton, 9 x 8in CAs) could be built and commissioned to make a difference in the conflict.

Without a number of the Capitani Romani class CLs to handle the MN contretorpilleurs, I would expect the Condottieri light cruisers to do that work.

As has been pointed out, RM light forces were handled with great élan, (See Mimbelli in Lupo and Fulgosi in Saggittario for examples) and an Italian effort against Toulon or Mers-el-Kabir such as Durand de la Penne executed in Alexandria would not surprise me, and could tip the balance of naval power.

Overall, Italy's fundamental problem is her commerce is controlled by the RN. Without a global war, does the UK shut off the Suez and (less importantly) Gibraltar to Italian commerce with"contraband'? With a war, as historically, she'll have to depend on Germany for oil and Germany will have her own issues. The longer the war, the more I would expect French industry and access to world trade to make an impact.

So to sum up my somewhat jumbled thoughts, I would expect a shorter war to be better for the RM, a longer war better for the MN.

Just been reading the Osprey book on Italian Cruisers . Apparently their guns were too close together that caused issues .

Dunquerque and Strasbourg suffered dispersion from barrel proximity as well. Delay coils were the solution. I could see the Italians introducing delay coils on the 8in cruiser turrets if they find this a problem in combat.

Regards all,
 
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Driftless

Donor
Might the long-ranged land-based SM.79 torpedo bombers become an advantage for the Italians? Especially, in absence of French Air Force fighters?
 

McPherson

Banned

I sense disagreement. We will use metrics of battle to analyze and try to reach a conclusion.
So far as the rebuilds go, I'm more specifically talking the rebuild vs rebuild fight. I tend to consider the WW1-era French BBs as death traps in any WW2 fight, and the Italians did a lot to improve their own ships. I'd much rather be in Cesare than Bretagne, as these things go. Relatedly, Italian plate was some of the best armor plate of the period. When quality control was up to snuff, anyway, which is a perennial issue with Italy at the time.

We have the British as the common denominator for artillery defense in the armor schemes of the various generations of ships. The British shot a lot at the French and the Italians in the 1940-1943 time frame so we can actually see how protection schemes held up to gunfire. For this purpose as a physics problem we can IGNORE speed of target vs. launcher as all that concerns us is the face presents, angles and resistance of the armor to penetration and damage. The British tended to use Greenboy 38cm bore diameter ammunition from capital ship main artillery and to use what we would call common or SAPPY. (semi-armor piercing) for antiship action in cruisers' main artillery and below classes.
Take this information with caution.

British shells had no problem with either WWI generation of dreadnoughts of either navy and that includes the Italian full rebuilds. The French armor belt and deck was thicker and more important more elastic than the Italian plate. This has something to do with sulfur content in the base iron ore before it was turned into steel alloy. French iron when it finally was alloyed into steel (Cruesot for example) was less brittle and less temperature sensitive to the boundary temperature phase shift at Mediterranean temperatures than Italian (Ansaldo for example) steel plate because that sulfur contamination was less and the leeching of the contaminate in the final annealing was better executed than in the Italian foundries. In addition we know from the face hardening processes the various navies used at the beginning of the twentieth century that it sorts out like this in the rankings by depth rations to elastic backing (cementing): British (hardening 25-30% depth), Germans (same), French (closer to 30%), Italians (quality control was spotty (20% to 30%) and the Americans and Japanese (somewhere around 25%). The French armor had excellent shatter gapping in the immunity zones. Italian capital ship main armament shells were likely to shatter more on French plate than the obverse. Italian plate was either good or it would shatter like glass.

Italy's offense and defense.

When it worked
,...

they had excellent plate and better shells. One can argue the armor layout, though that's an entirely different question*

French went in for decapping and shattergap. Italians wanted to pre-detonate NOT decap. Both were wrong in their approach.

So far as underwater protection goes, I find the Pugilese system to be knocked on a lot. But the Italians never lost a BB to a torp hit on the thing. When they took torp hits in combat, the ships were hit in places that no ship would have their torpedo defense system installed. Be it the stern (ironically surviving a hit more or less where PoW was crippled) or the bow. The only time they got sunk by torpedoes was at Taranto, when the ships were caught flat-footed in harbor. In combat? They managed quite well, regardless of whatever issues the system may have had**.

Take this for what it is worth.

Nobody between the wars did a very good job with torpedo defense. They either misunderstood how shock waves transitioned from solid to fluid to gas or they misjudged the water hammer effect.

The Italians were exceptionally poor at understanding how it worked.

The Italians made the next, much more negative leap in 1934, with the Pugliese System introduced in the Vittorio Veneto Class and the reconstructions of the Conte di Cavour Class and Andrea Doria Class ships. The Pugliese design filled the volume of the TDS with a large cylinder, which was in turn filled with closed tubes reminiscent of those in HMS Ramillies. Pugiese's theory was that the torpedo would expend its energy crushing the cylinder. In practice the design failed miserably. Following the path of least resistance, the blast traveled around the cylinder and concentrated itself against the weakest point of the complex structure supporting the cylinder: the concave holding bulkhead.

This bulkhead acted much like a dam mistakenly built bowing downstream, rather than upstream against the current. This concave surface was structurally the weakest possible arrangement for containing the force of an explosion, and to make matters worse, the workmanship proved tragically defective. Conte di Cavour sank from a single torpedo hit at Taranto, and Caio Duilio had to be beached to prevent her sinking, also after one hit. Littorio suffered three hits, grounding her bow before she could sink. Vittorio Veneto twice, and Littorio once, suffered severe flooding in dangerous situations at sea when struck by torpedoes, more than such modern ships should have.

Pugliese's design also consumed tremendous volume, and foreshortened the depth of the armored belt, making the ships so fitted more vulnerable to shell hits below the waterline. Once again, practical experience proved that not every innovation represented an improvement.

Now the French...

Even in the Richelieu Class, the depth of the system was not constant from bow to stern, tending to taper and thin out toward the ends.

The French tended to follow concurrently the American cellular sausage practice or vice versa depending on one's point of view. Their TDS was outstanding, comparatively speaking.

I'd also call Italian cruisers, as a whole, superior to French cruisers. Both have ships with paper armor, but the Italians have more ships with better armor in the form of the Zara sisters. Unless I'm misremembering my French naval trivia (which I may, it's late here) the only French heavy (or light) cruiser with any armor worth a damn was Algerie. Otherwise they have paper armor, even compared to the Italians. I don't think we know enough about how French cruisers- without any influence from the Allies -perform to say how they compared to the Italians, which we have a wealth of information on since the Italians didn't have any allies hijacking their ships and doctrines (to the same extent, anyway). It may be the French are better, doctrinally, it may be they're worse. Hard to say. At least for what I can recall when I really should be in bed. >.>

As the cruiser brawls proved during the war, not getting hit at all and cellular compartmentation was more important than useless armor schemes. Especially if the cruisers were spotlighted and surprised at ranges of 7,000 to 5,000 meters by British battleships. They would be blasted out of existence in mere minutes. To choose on the basis of agility as in chasing shell splashes and dodging torpedoes one can quibble, but the French held a slight tactical speed and turning circle edge class for class and were better compartmented. Even Algerie maintained this edge over Zara.

Depending on the time frame, at any rate, the French have the rather large issue of only having a couple modern battleships and those ships being the Dunk sisters, which I would really not want to take against a Littorio. It's hard to say when Riche and Jean Bart would be finished in the event of no Germany knocking on the gates, but the same could be said for Italy not needing to cart Roma off to a different yard to finish her. At bare minimum, you'd have two Littorios to one Riche for a while. While I'd generally not want to be in a rebuild against a Dunk, it's not a terrible matchup if the Italians are smart. The same can't be said for the reverse.

We have the combat histories on the Littorios and the Richelieus. In general, the evidence is very sketchy since the French battleships were never in true maneuver battles, but as TARGETS we have results. Richelieu took a beating from Massachusetts that I doubt an anchored KGV could survive as well. Roma was smashed to ruin and sank due to a hit by a German radio-controlled bomb, one each that would not be the equal of a US superheavyweight 40.6 cm shell. I have to take that evidence into account.
(I generally find the Littorio very underrated, but that's me. I've done a lot of research into them and find them knocked on a lot.)

I'm not knocking the Littorios. I find the same knock-on for the Richelieus.

The Richelieu class was to have been an answer to the Italian Littorio class, only the French actually tried to stay within the Treaty limits. In this they did a reasonably good job, as the Richelieu was widely regarded as equal or superior to the much larger (by approximately 5,700 tons) Littorio class. This was an important comparison at the time Richelieu was designed, as France and Italy were engaged in a Mediterranean naval arms race.

Richelieu was designed to carry eight 15 inch, 15-6 inch DP, 8-37mm AA and 24-13.2mm light AA guns. During trials (conducted postwar) she made 32.5 knots. A hefty 37% of her displacement was allocated to protection, which was adequate against 15 inch shellfire.

In that sense she was probably the best balanced of the fast battleships that were actually designed to conform to the Treaty, as she carried 15 inch guns and was adequately protected against 15 inch gunfire. You can make a pretty good case for Richelieu as the best of the treaty battleships.

The Scharnhorsts and the KG Vs had the armor, but not the main battery. The North Carolinas had 16 inch guns, but not an equal level of protection. The South Dakotas had 16 inch guns and the armor to protect against them, but were very cramped ships compromised in other ways. The Nelson class were really the last of the second generation dreadnoughts and were seriously deficient in speed.

Now, this could easily be reversed if you took France and Italy from a few years later, when you've got multiple Riche around, even if the latter two of that class might as well be new classes and we don't know about when Alsace could feasibly show up. For that matter, we don't know what the Italians could- or would -build to counter the latter.

See quoted citations.

*I find there to be a lot of argument on the Italian layered-scheme. It generally comes down to how you value shell decapping. I tend to find it underrated, but see above. French ships aren't really the plunging fire type, so I don't think the deck armor weakness is as relevant here as it would be against Americans. Or British, ironically, considering the BL-15 being a belt-puncher not a deck-puncher.

Considering that what killed you was the bomb and the torpedo, I regard the armor belt as the least important factor in this hypothetical conflict. Torpedo defense, compartmentation and deck armor is more important

The main issue was, again, construction faults more than the design itself. It's inefficent as all hell, no arguments there, but the main issue it had in practice was the connection to the hull and crumpling too much. Again, though, we can't say for sure how it would react to a dead center hit. Because the Italians never actually had a dead-center torp hit on one of their modern (the rebuilds are different in practice) BBs. And what hits they did take, they survived when the crew was able to actually do something about it.

But we have the damage reports from Taranto, the very specific Italian ones which include the shocked engineers' assessments of just how poorly the Pugliese protection scheme had worked against the puny warheaded British airborne torpedoes. Against true heavyweight British destroyer or cruiser torpedoes? Or how about French ones? Let me suggest something. Japanese cruisers were sliced in two by "puny" American torpedoes when they worked, because the two cell system failed. Italian cruisers were worse than that. Italian battleships were worse than that. The inner float bubble bulkheads were not stout enough and for the battleships, presenting an inward concave face to a water hammer was asking for refocusing of the pressure wave to rebound off that stupid compression tube scheme. Double hammer.

Submarines... and destroyers and MAS boats.

Italy, hands down. They had a surprisingly very good submarine arm. One of their subs- Leonardo da Vinci -is the highest scoring, non-German, sub of the war.

Agreed. That would actually be the difference. In a coastal and brown water environment where airpower and light forces will massacre "a high seas fleet" the Italians hold a massive edge.

Edit: Jean Bart was the battleship Massachusetts shot up, not Richelieu. Richelieu took her beating at the hands of the British.
 
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Honestly, I’d only say the Dunks and Riche sisters are worth anything for French BBs. The Courbets and Bretagnes are bad. They were utter garbage as built (horrible guns, terrible armor, slow/small) and the modernizations...didn’t do a whole lot to help. French shells also have some issues.

(IIRC, weak bases because of the need for poison gas shells. Yes, really, this was a thing)

Meanwhile, depending on the period, the Italian rebuilds are vastly superior if they have them. I’d call the guns better (fire control is very much better, on the equivalent rebuilds), armor is about even, and they’re far faster. Those ships would suffer against British ships mostly because the Brits has the excellent BL 15in. French...not so much.

Dunk and Riche are issues, though. I personally prefer Littorio, but that’s me.

(Relatedly: Italian guns and gunnery are quite good, if a tad too high velocity. The issue was quality control on the shells. You never knew what batch was good or not. One of the Littorio sisters (VV?) had much better performance because her crew was picky and tried to get the best shells possible)

The french built capital ship gun gas shells?
 

McPherson

Banned
The french built capital ship gun gas shells?

Yes. The Italians were very well aware of it and practiced against it. I mean it sounds ridiculous, chemical warfare in a naval gunfight, but the poisons the French selected were vesicants intended to make operating a ship impossible by surface contamination of the interiors and the decks. This was supposed to debilitate enemy performance.

More on the French Marine National here.

As previously commented, the MN has good equipment, so-so doctrine and brave well trained crews.
 
Yes. The Italians were very well aware of it and practiced against it. I mean it sounds ridiculous, chemical warfare in a naval gunfight, but the poisons the French selected were vesicants intended to make operating a ship impossible by surface contamination of the interiors and the decks. This was supposed to debilitate enemy performance.
Wasn't this one of the primary reasons for the enclosed bridge on the NelRods?
 

McPherson

Banned
Wasn't this one of the primary reasons for the enclosed bridge on the NelRods?

I don't know about that one. I thought the reasons for the control block were for mostly for operational control and flag-shipping purposes during expected heavy weather.
How do French and Italian submarines fare?

Italians submarines would have little to fear from French ASW at the first so French commerce is in trouble if Commando Supremo is smarter than the Moose (Not hard to do in matters, military. McP.). Later on, like any competent navy, I expect the French to improve their ASW measures. Since the Italians experimented with snort boats, I expect that it could be possible that the Italians adopt or invent Dutch Alligator tactics in reaction to improved French ASW and convoy escort, as we see show up in 1942 when Dutch snort equipped boats begin to fight in earnest.

French submarines would have immediate problems with Italian ASW forces, though I expect French efforts at submarine minelaying of Italian ports will surprise and upset the RM with their probable successes. The French were good at mine warfare and their submariners practiced it with resolution..
 
I don't know about that one. I thought the reasons for the control block were for mostly for operational control and flag-shipping purposes during expected heavy weather.


Italians submarines would have little to fear from French ASW at the first so French commerce is in trouble if Commando Supremo is smarter than the Moose (Not hard to do in matters, military. McP.). Later on, like any competent navy, I expect the French to improve their ASW measures. Since the Italians experimented with snort boats, I expect that it could be possible that the Italians adopt or invent Dutch Alligator tactics in reaction to improved French ASW and convoy escort, as we see show up in 1942 when Dutch snort equipped boats begin to fight in earnest.

French submarines would have immediate problems with Italian ASW forces, though I expect French efforts at submarine minelaying of Italian ports will surprise and upset the RM with their probable successes. The French were good at mine warfare and their submariners practiced it with resolution..
Who has better submarines then?
 
I don't know about that one. I thought the reasons for the control block were for mostly for operational control and flag-shipping purposes during expected heavy weather.

From memory there was something about the Yamotos and gas too. For the most part gas protection seems to be about maintaining positive air pressure inside structures like turrets. Air conditioning and tower structures match up with that.
 

McPherson

Banned
Italy or France...

Who has better submarines then?

That is a tough question to answer because neither navy intended to use their submarines the same way, and the ways they eventually used their boats was nothing like what they thought.

For example, the French Surcouf was intended to be a diving cruiser submersible that depended on her artillery more than her torpedoes to raid globally. It was a disaster. Then we have "fleet submarines" like the Redoubtable which was a "fleet boat" that was designed for Mediterranean Sea conditions and was to cooperate with the battle fleet. It was too slow. Then there were the small coastal boats like the Sirene, which were designed as "mobile ambush minefields" designed to lay off enemy ports and blockade to pick off enemy commerce, and there was the Rubis which was a specialized minelayer and mission boat. The Sirene and the Rubis types were successful as minelayers and open ocean anti-ship strike units. Surprise, surprise. Not what the French admirals expected at all!

The Italians designed their boats differently. They had their "fleet boats" which they intended to use as scouts and ambush units during those fleet sweeps they expected the French to conduct along the Italian coasts. It is hard to imagine now that these boats were fast enough for that mission. The boats were in war used far differently, against British convoys, much like German boats were. Then the Italians had coastal subs that would operate much like the French counterparts, mouse-holing enemy ports like sea-going cats, War CHANGED this dual operational concept because Italy lacked the shipbuilding capacity to replace losses and the overall mission profiles changed as reality bit hard. The Italians had to build mostly "medium" boats of a small and simplified nature (Wartime Marconi class) that could survive enemy ASW forces. They had to build "pig carriers" that could deliver special operations forces type minisubs. (And the minisubs.) They had to build cargo subs like the Japanese for their isolated garrisons, and they had to build a few long range merchant boats to reach Japan.

So whose subs were better? The users would say that FOR THEM, their boats were better than the enemies' boats. Technically, either side would be correct, although the French had less to show for it objectively in the end for their investment. That was due to land warfare factors beyond the MN's control. Italy's RM went down swinging at sea to the bitter end, as she was kaputted by the two largest navies on Earth who landed the armies that finished her on her shores. When Italy switched sides, the RM subs proved to be frightfully effective as special mission units under new competent leadership against the remaining Axis such as the Italian Socialist Republic under the now puppet Mussolini. (Aquila scuttled.)

Does that answer the question?
 
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While the French may have to assign ships to cover other areas, the Italians likewise cant use everything against the French. The British have major forces at Gibraltar and Alexandria, and it would be a foolish Italian Admiral who assume they didn't need to be covered off, not matter how peaceful the RN proclaims itself to be.
 
I could see a large fleet of Decima Flottiglia MAS PT boats making a suicide run against one of the French BBs.
I could also see Decima Flottiglia MAS sinking 1/2 of France's BBs the same way they took out 2 UK BB at Alexandria.
 

McPherson

Banned
One invoked Jutland, which means other navies are involved. In the RTL case the RN had to maintain presence in the Indian and Mediterranean Oceans to keep an eye on frisky foreign powers like the Austro Hungarians and Ottomans.

In any fight between France and Italy, both of them will be looking over their shoulders, France at Germany and Italy at the British. ATLs have to be realistic.
While the French may have to assign ships to cover other areas, the Italians likewise cant use everything against the French. The British have major forces at Gibraltar and Alexandria, and it would be a foolish Italian Admiral who assume they didn't need to be covered off, not matter how peaceful the RN proclaims itself to be.

ChoppedLiver.jpg


:p
 
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Arguably the best tactical setup for a French-Italian naval engagement is have an encounter shortly before France surrenders and just after Italy enters the way. Maybe the Italian fleet sorties to interdict a large French convoy taking troops from southern France to Algeria. The convoy is escorted by the main strength of the French Fleet that is in the Mediterranean at the time. A big part of the reason for the Italian sortie is the RM's leaders want to be able to say they contributed to the victory against France or some such nonsense.

What do the Italians have on hand at the time they could have sent and what did the French have in the Mediterranean at the time. I know the French Twins were there and Bearn was not.
 

McPherson

Banned
Arguably the best tactical setup for a French-Italian naval engagement is have an encounter shortly before France surrenders and just after Italy enters the way. Maybe the Italian fleet sorties to interdict a large French convoy taking troops from southern France to Algeria. The convoy is escorted by the main strength of the French Fleet that is in the Mediterranean at the time. A big part of the reason for the Italian sortie is the RM's leaders want to be able to say they contributed to the victory against France or some such nonsense.

What do the Italians have on hand at the time they could have sent and what did the French have in the Mediterranean at the time. I know the French Twins were there and Bearn was not.

ss
Mediterranean (Toulon und Mers-el-Kebir, Vice- Admiral Godfroy)
Atlantic (Brest, Vice-Admiral Gensoul)
Bay of Biscay
Chanal
Casablanca
Indo- China
Battleships3----
Battle cruisers2--
Aircraft Carrier-1---
Seaplane Carrier1----
Cruisers103---2
Destroyers48103725
Submarines53---4

The Italians would have their forces as follows.

Order of Battle

Situation of the Italian Navy on June 10th 1940 (Italy's entry in WWII)

@ = civilian ship, requisitioned
(*) = Flagship
BB = Battleship
CA = Havey Criser
CL = Light Crusier
DD = Destroyer
TB = Torpedo-Boat (eiter obsolete Destroyers or more modern light escort units)
MAS = Fast Torpedo-Boat (Small, modern torpedo units)

1st Fleet (Vice Admiral Campioni)

Auxiliary Units:
  • Seaplane Tender GIUSEPPE MIRAGLIA
  • Water Tanker ISONZO
  • Water Tanker PO
  • Water Tanker GARDA
  • Tug ATLANTE
  • Tug LIPARI
5th Battleship Division (Rear Admiral Brivonesi)
  • BB GIULIO CESARE (*)
  • BB CONTE DI CAVOUR
Note: the CESARE was flagship of the 1st Fleet also.

7th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD FRECCIA
  • DD DARDO
  • DD SAETTA
  • DD STRALE
8th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD FOLGORE
  • DD FULMINE
  • DD BALENO
  • DD LAMPO
9th Battleship Division (Rear Admiral Bergamini)
  • BB LITTORIO (*)
  • BB VITTORIO VENETO
Note: both this units were not fully operational yet.

14th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD UGOLINO VIVALDI
  • DD ANTONIO DA NOLI
  • DD LEONE PANCALDO
15th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD ANTONIO PIGAFETTA
  • DD NICOLO' ZENO
  • DD ALVISE DA MOSTO
  • DD GIOVANNI DA VERRAZZANO
  • DD LANZEROTTO MALOCELLO
1st Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Matteucci)
  • CA ZARA (*)
  • CA GORIZIA
  • CA FIUME
9th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD VITTORIO ALFIERI
  • DD ALFREDO ORIANI
  • DD GIOSUE' CARDUCCI
  • DD VINCENZO GIOBERTI
4th Crusier Division (Rear Admiral Marenco)
  • CL ALBERICO DA BARBIANO (*)
  • CL LUIGI CADORNA
  • CL ALBERTO DA GIUssANO
  • CL ARMANDO DIAZ
  • DD LANCIERE
Note: The LANCIERE was provisionally detached from the 12th Destroyer Squadron - 2nd Fleet.

8th Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Legnani)
  • CL LUIGI DI SAVOIA DUCA DEGLI ABRUZZI (*)
  • CL GIUSEPPE GARIBALDI
16th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD NICOLOSO DA RECCO
  • DD ANTONIOTTO USODIMARE
  • DD TARIGO
  • DD EMANUELE PEssAGNO
2nd Fleet (Vice Admiral Paladini)
  • CA POLA (*)
12th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD CARABINIERE
  • DD CORAZZIERE
  • DD ASCARI
  • Auxiliary Units:
  • Repair Ship QUARNARO
  • Water Tanker VOLTURNO
  • Water Tanker ISTRIA
  • Water Tanker FLEGETONTE
  • Water Tanker MINCIO
  • Oil Tanker COCITO
  • Tug ERCOLE
  • Tug PORTOFERRAIO
3rd Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Cattaneo)
  • CA TRENTO (*)
  • CA BOLZANO
  • CA TRIESTE
11th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD ARTIGLIERE
  • DD CAMICIA NERA
  • DD AVIERE
  • DD GENIERE
7th Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Sansonetti)
  • CL EUGENIO DI SAVOIA (*)
  • CL EMANUELE FILIBERTO DUCA D'AOSTA
  • CL MUZIO ATTENDOLO
  • CL RAIMONDO MONTECUCCOLI
13th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD GRANATIERE
  • DD FUCILIERE
  • DD BERSAGLIERE
  • DD ALPINO
2nd Cruiser Division (Rear Admiral Casardi)
  • CL GIOVANNI DALLE BANDE NERE (*)
  • CL BARTOLOMEO COLLEONI
10th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD MAESTRALE
  • DD LIBECCIO
  • DD GRECALE
  • DD SCIROCCO
Submarine Fleet (Vice Admiral Falangola)
1st Group
11th Squadron
  • SS CALVI
  • SS FINZI
  • SS TAZZOLI
  • SS ETTORE FIERAMOSCA
12th Squadron
  • SS CAPPELLINI
  • SS FAA DI BRUNO
  • SS LAZZARO MOCENIGO
  • SS SEBASTIANO VENIERO
  • SS GLAUCO
  • SS OTARIA
13th Squadron
  • SS BERILLIO
  • SS ONICE
  • SS GEMMA
14th Squadron
  • SS IRIDE
  • SS ARGO
  • SS VALELLA
15th Squadron
  • SS GONDAR
  • SS NEGHELLI
  • SS ASCIANGHI
  • SS SCIRE'
16th Squadron
  • SS MICCA
  • SS FOCA
17th Squadron
  • H1
  • H2
  • H4
  • H6
  • H8
2nd Group
21st Squadron
  • SS MARCELO
  • SS NANI
  • SS ENRICO DANDOLO
  • SS PROVANA
22nd Squadron
  • SS BARBARIGO
  • SS ANGELO EMO
  • SS FRANCESCO MOROSINI
  • SS GUGLIELMO MARCONI
  • SS LEONARDO DA VINCI
3rd Group
31st Squadron
  • SS VETTOR PISANI
  • SS COLONNA
  • SS BAUSAN
  • SS DES GENEYES
33rd Squadron
  • SS FRATELLI BANDIERA
  • SS LUCIANO MANARA
  • SS CIRO MENOTTI
  • SS SANTORE DI SANTAROSA
34th Squadron
  • SS GOFFREDO MAMELI
  • SS PIER CAPPONI
  • SS TITO SPERI
  • SS DA PROCIDA
35th Squadron
  • SS DURBO
  • SS TEMBIEN
  • SS BEILUL
37th Squadron
  • X2
  • X3
4th Group
40th Squadron
  • SS BALILLA
  • SS AMATORE SCIESA
  • SS ENRICO TOTI
  • SS DOMENICO MILLELIRE
41st Squadron
  • SS LIUZZI
  • SS ATTILIO BAGNOLINI
  • SS GIULIANI
  • SS TARANTINI
42nd Squadron
  • SS BENEDETTO BRIN
43rd Squadron
  • SS SETTIMO
  • SS SETTEMBRINI
44th Squadron
  • SS ANFITRITE
45th Squadron
  • SS SALPA
  • SS SERPENTE
46th Squadron
  • SS DEssIE'
  • SS DAGABUR
  • SS UAR-SCIECK
  • SS UEBI-SCEBELI
47th Squadron
  • SS MALACHITE
  • SS RUBINO
  • SS AMBRA
48th Squadron
  • SS ONDINA
49th Squadron
  • SS ATROPO
  • SS ZOEA
  • SS FILIPPO CORRIDONI
7th Group
71st Squadron
  • SS ALAGI
  • SS ADUA
  • SS AXUM
  • SS ARADAM
72nd Squadron
  • SS DIASPRO
  • SS CORALLO
  • SS TURCHESE
  • SS MEDUSA
Upper Tyrrenhian Sea Department (Vice Admiral Aimone di Savoia-Aosta)

10th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB VEGA
  • TB SAGITTARIO
  • TB PERSEO
  • TB SIRIO
  • TB GIACINTO CARINI
  • TB ANTONIO LA MASA
Note: The Carini and La Masa were detached from the 3rd Torpedo-Boat Squadron, Lower Tyrrenhian Sea Department.
16th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB MONZAMBANO
  • TB CURTATONE
  • TB CASTELFIDARDO
  • TB CALATAFIMI
1st MAS Flottilla
  • TB STEFANO TUR
  • 20 x MAS
Auxiliary Units:
  • Mine-layer ORLANDO @
  • Mine-layer GASPERI @
  • Mine-layer CROTONE
  • Mine-layer FASANA
  • Transport Ship MATTEUCCI @
  • Gunboat RIMINI
  • Water Tanker DALMAZIA
Lower Tyrrenhian Sea Department (vice Admiral Pini)

1st Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB AIRONE
  • TB ARIEL
  • TB ARETUSA
  • TB ALCIONE
  • TB ALBATROS
2nd Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB PAPA
  • TB MONTANARI
  • TB CASCINO
  • TB CHINOTTO
3rd Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB PRESTINARI
  • TB CANTORE
4th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB PROCIONE
  • TB ORIONE
  • TB ORSA
  • TB PERSEO
5th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB SIMONE SCHIAFFINO
  • TB DEZZA
  • TB GIUSEPPE LA FARINA
  • TB ABBA
9th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB CAssIOPEA
  • TB CANOPO
  • TB CAIROLI
  • TB ANTONIO MOSTO
12th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB ALTAIR
  • TB ANTARES
  • TB ALDEBARAN
  • TB ANDROMEDA
13th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB CIRCE
  • TB CLIO
  • TB CALLIOPE
  • TB CALIPSO
14th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB PARTENOPE
  • TB POLLUCE
  • TB PLEIADI
  • TB PALLADE
2nd MAS Flottilla
  • 16 x MAS
4th MAS Squadron
  • 4 x MAS
Auxiliary Units:
  • Mine-layer PARTENOPE @
  • Mine-layer BUFFOLUTO
  • Mine-layer DURAZZO
  • Mine-layer PELAGOSA
  • Mine-layer CARALIS @
  • Mine-layer DEFFENU @
  • Mine-layer MAZARA @
  • Mine-layer BUCCARI
  • Mine-layer SCILLA
  • Mine-layer BRIONI @
  • Mine-layer ADRIATICO @
  • Depot Ship PACINOTTI
  • Depot Ship ALEssANDRO VOLTA
  • Water Tanker ARNO
  • Water Tanker METAURO
  • Water Tanker VERDE
  • Water Tanker PROMETEO
  • Water Tanker BORMIDA
  • Water Tanker BRENTA
IONIAN AND LOWER ADRIATIC DEPARTMENT (Vice Admiral Pasetti)

  • CL BARI
  • CL TARANTO
Note : both were obsolete WW1 war-booty former German ships.
2nd Destroyer Squadron
  • DD ESPERO
  • DD BOREA
  • DD ZEFFIRO
  • DD OSTRO
6th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD ROSOLINO PILO
  • DD FRANCESCO STOCCO
  • DD GIUSEPPE MIssORI
  • DD SIRTORI
  • DD AUGUSTO RIBOTY
  • DD MIRABELLO
Note: obsolete units, all the other units of their classes had already be= en re-classified as TB.

7th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB ANGELO BAssINI
  • TB COSENZ
  • TB GIACOMO MEDICI
  • TB NICOLA FABRIZI
3rd MAS Squadron
  • 2 x MAS
Auxiliary Units:
  • Mine-layer BARLETTA @
  • Mine-layer VIESTE
  • Mine-layer OTRANTO
  • Mine-layer GALLIPOLI
  • Transport Ship CHERSO
  • Transport Ship LUssINO
  • Water Tanker SESIA
  • Water Tanker GARIGLIANO
  • Water Tanker TIRSO
  • Water Tanker ADIGE
  • Gunboat CIRENE
Upper Adriatic Sea Department (Vice Admiral Ferdinando di Savoia)

15th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB CONFIENZA
  • TB SOLFERINO
  • TB SAN MARTINO
  • TB PALESTRO
  • TB GIOVANNINI
Training Sail-Ships
  • CRISTOFORO COLOMBO
  • AMERIGO VESPUCCI
6th MAS Squadron
  • 4 x MAS
Auxiliary Units:
  • Mine-layer ALBONA
  • Mine-layer LAURANA
  • Mine-layer ROVIGNO
  • Mine-layer ANZIO
  • Mine-layer SAN GIORGIO @
  • Mine-layer SAN GIUSTO @
  • Oil Tanker LETE
  • Water Tanker SCRIVIA
  • Water Tanker VERBANO
Aegean Sea Naval Command (Rear Admiral Biancheri)

4th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD FRANCESCO CRISPI
  • DD QUINTINO SELLA
8th Torpedo-Boats Squadron
  • TB LUPO
  • TB LINCE
  • TB LIRA
  • TB LIBRA
3rd MAS Flottilla
  • 15 x MAS
5th Submarine Group
51st Squadron
  • SS NARVALO
  • SS SQUALO
  • SS TRICHECO
  • SS DELFINO
52nd Squadron
  • SS JALEA
  • SS IANTINA
  • SS AMETISTA
  • SS ZAFFIRO
Auxiliary Units:
  • Mine-layer LERO @
  • Mine-layer LEGNANO
  • Gunboat SONZINI
  • Gunboat CABOTO
  • Oil Tanker CERERE
Albania Naval Command (Rear Admiral Tur)
  • Water Tanker PAGANO
  • Minesweeper VIGILANTE
  • Minesweeper VEDETTA
Lybia Naval Command (Rear Admiral Brivonesi)
1st Destroyer Squadron
  • DD TURBINE
  • DD AQUILONE
  • DD EURO
  • DD NEMBO
11th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
  • TB CIGNO
  • TB CASTORE
  • TB CLIMENE
  • TB CENTAURO
  • CA SAN GIORGIO
Note: obsolete unit, used as a stationary AA platform.
6th Submarine Group
61st Squadron
  • SS SIRENA
  • SS ARGONAUTA
  • SS FISALIA
  • SS SMERALDO
  • SS NEREIDE
62nd Squadron
  • SS DIAMANTE
  • SS TOPAZIO
  • SS NEREIDE
  • SS GALATEA
  • SS LAFOLE
Auxiliary Units:
  • Mine-layer MONTE GARGANO @
  • Gunboat PALMAIOLA
  • Gunboat DE LUTTI
  • Gunboat GRAZIOLI LANTE
  • Gunboat GIOVANNI BERTA
  • Gunboat VALOROSO
  • Water Tanker LINA CAMPANELLA @
  • Water Tanker POLIFEMO @
  • Water Tanker TICINO
Italian East Africa Naval Command (Rear Admiral Balsamo)
  • Colonial Patrol Ship ERITREA
3rd Destroyer Squadron
  • DD FRANCESCO NULLO
  • DD NAZARIO SAURO
  • DD CESARE BATTISTI
  • DD DANIELE MANIN
5th Destroyer Squadron
  • DD PANTERA
  • DD TIGRE
  • DD LEONE
Torpedo-Boats Detachment:
  • TB GIOVANNI ACERBI
  • TB VINCENZO ORSINI
21st MAS Squadron
  • 5 x MAS
8th Submarine Group
81st Squadron
  • SS GUGLIELMOTTI
  • SS GALILEO FERRARIS
  • SS GALILEO GALILEI
  • SS LUIGI GALVANI
82nd Squadron
  • SS PERLA
  • SS MACALLE'
  • SS ARCHIMEDE
  • SS EVANGELISTA TORRICELLI
Auxiliary Units:
  • Gunboat PORTO CORSINI
  • Gunboat BIGLIERI
  • Mine-layer OSTIA
  • Oil Tanker NIOBE
  • Water Tanker SILE
  • Water Tanker SEBETO
  • Water Tanker BACCHIGLIONE
Far East naval Command (Commander Galletti)
  • Mine-layer LEPANTO
  • Gunboat CARLOTTO
Naval GHQ directly-controlled auxiliaries:
  • Royal Yacht AURORA
  • Royal Yacht SAVOIA
  • Royal Yacht ILLIRIA
  • Radio-controlled target-ship SAN MARCO
  • Hydrographic Ship AMMIRAGLIO MAGNAGHI
  • Hydrographic Ship CARIDDI
  • Transport Ship ENRICHETTA
  • Transport Ship TRIPOLI
  • Transport Ship VALLELUNGA
  • Transport Ship PANIGAGLIA
  • Transport Ship ASMARA
  • Hospital Ship AQUILEIA
  • Cable-layer CITTA' DI MILANO
  • Cable-layer GIASONE
  • Oil Tanker TARVISIO
  • Oil Tanker BRENNERO
  • Oil Tanker URANO
  • Oil Tanker BRONTE
  • Oil Tanker NETTUNO
  • Oil Tanker GIOVE
  • Oil Tanker MARTE
  • Oil Tanker STIGE
  • Tug TESEO
  • Tug TITANO
  • Tug CICLOPE
  • Tug MARETTIMO
  • Tug LUNI
  • Tug EGADI
  • Tug NEREO
  • Tug MARSIGLI
  • Tug MONTECRISTO

Since this ACTUALLY shows how scattered the Italians were; it explains why the Regia Marina was not likely to joyfully storm out of La Spezia to attack the French at Toulon. The Italian admirals were sensibly FIXATED on the British at Alexandria. Hence the Taranto buildup.
 
Side note, but for all that the Trentos are rather lightly armored, they're a damn sight better than most of their contemporaries. Including the Suffren and Duquesne classes. The 70mm belt is rather thin, but with 100mm turret armor and a 50mm deck they have otherwise very solid protection.

Little wonder that one site comments on them that "either strength or truth was compromised, and probably both."
 
The tactical point is whether the French can deploy all their squadrons at once or the Italians get the hance to attack them piecemeal. It‘s a bit like Russia vs. Japan in OTL.
 
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