French Borders
- Thread starter Moglwi
- Start date
archaeogeek
Banned
They tried (Wars of Devolution iirc), but before France grabbed Alsace, Lorraine and the "three bishoprics" (three citystates detached from Lorraine) the natural eastern border was the Meuse iirc.
Basically the wars of devolution were not so much the HRE as most of Europe being tired of France's warmongering.
archaeogeek
Banned
There was also an attempt by Talleyrand at granting all of Belgium, Geneva and Palatinate to the french at Vienna, but it fell through. I feel it would make an excellent POD.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Too many non-French to bother assimilating me thinks. France is fine the way it is.
Susano
Banned
There was also an attempt by Talleyrand at granting all of Belgium, Geneva and Palatinate to the french at Vienna, but it fell through. I feel it would make an excellent POD.
I meant the OP.
I mean, I can understand if people havent heard of 18th century French expansionism, or havent heard about the French border during Revolutionary and Napoleonic times being the Rhine - but then using the same "natural border" nonsense terminology as French irredentists?
Could be coincidence, but could also be troll.
Moglwi said:
They tried to have the Rhine as a natural border. They even succeeded shortly during the Revolutionnary Wars (the left bank of the Rhine was French from 1799 to 1814). However, the failed as it would have made France a too strong power on the Continent : the French were the dominating Kingdom since the end of the Hundred Years' War, maybe earlier (I'm not sure but I think France was the strongest state in Europe after the riegn of Philip II Augustus), having them become stronger would have led to a French hegemony which would have bothered everyone, especially England/Britain.
I think the idea of the Rhine as a natural border of France is linked to the fact France occupies much of the fromer Gallic territory (the Rhine was one of the borders of Gaul for the Romans) and the French consider that the Gauls are part of their ancestors. Plus, the area between the Meuse and the Rhine as a lot of common history with France.
The area between the Rhine and Meuse also had a lot in common with the Holy Roman Empire and the Low Countries* (* =well at least further downstream).
Anyway regarding the original question the French tried several times to establish their 'natural border', but obviously the Holy Roman Empire (and local German states), the Low Countries (Northern and Southern Netherlands) weren't too thrilled about that, since this also implies a claim on their territories south of Rhine and Meuse (Southern Netherlands and Northern Netherlands south of the Rhine and Meuse).
). Anyway regarding the original question the French tried several times to establish their 'natural border', but obviously the Holy Roman Empire (and local German states), the Low Countries (Northern and Southern Netherlands) weren't too thrilled about that, since this also implies a claim on their territories south of Rhine and Meuse (Southern Netherlands and Northern Netherlands south of the Rhine and Meuse).
Actually it only was French from 1810-1814 (and in 1810 they crossed the Rhine annexing parts on the other site, like the rest of the Netherlands.)
France thought of its natural borders as the Pyrenees, the Rhine, and the Alps; of course naturally the situation wasn't as simple as it looked.
France could easily get the Netherlands west of the Rhine if the Valois-Burgundy somehow manage to become kings of France, which is pretty unlikely given their position on the line of succession (and the fact that they went extinct in the male line in 1477).
France could easily get the Netherlands west of the Rhine if the Valois-Burgundy somehow manage to become kings of France, which is pretty unlikely given their position on the line of succession (and the fact that they went extinct in the male line in 1477).
SavoyTruffle said:
Actually, the chances of the Bourbons getting the French crown were quite smaller than those of the Valois-Burgundy before the latter became extinct. The Valois-Burgundy were descendants of Philip II the Bold, Duke of Burgundy and fourth son of John II of France. The Bourbons, for their part, are descendants of Robert of Clermont, the youngest son of Saint Louis IX of France who is a great great grandfather of John II. A Valois-Burgundian candidate to the French throne would thus have come before a Bourbon if the line had survived.
Mirza Khan even made a timeline with a Burgundian getting the French throne. It's called "Vive la Bourgogne! Vive la France!". The Valois-Burgundy do not die out in 1477, OTL Francis I dies before Louis XII and thus a Burgundian duke gets the French crown.
It's true that the Valois-Burgundians were the youngest of the Valois branches. However, the Valois-Berry line had went extinct in 1402 and the Valois-Anjou were extinct in the male line in 1480/1481. Thus, the Burgundians would have been the next one after the three lines of the main branches, which includes :
-The main line (Charles V, Charles VI, Charles VII, Louis XI, Charles VIII) who died out in 1498.
-The Orléans Line (Charles V, Louis of Orléans, Charles of Orléans, Louis XII) who died out in 1515.
-The Angoulême Line (Charles V, Louis of Orléans, John of Angoulême, Charles of Angoulême, Francis I, Henry II, Francis II, Charles IX and Henry III) who died out in 1589.
It's thus not that hard to have the Valois-Burgundy survive long enough to get the French crown. What might be harder would be to stop Charles the Bold from wishing to become an independant King, which lead him to confront Louis XI.
Only the German part. The Dutch parts south of the Rhine France only got in 1810 and a couple of months after they annexed it, they annexed the rest of the Netherlands.