If Rome were reformed along some sort of federal lines, with the outlying territories having genuine representation in the government, what might those territories be called?
Federal Roman Territory Designations
- Thread starter DominusNovus
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I would think Cyrennaica would be a part of Egypt tbh. Also, Hellenia would most likely be Grecia. Unless they have 2 official languages, Greek and Roman?
Well I mean, we can't really predict what a complete roman empire would look like in the present day, so anything's possible really.
Oops. I should have been more clear:
What would the designation be? Not the individual locations, but the term? The Romans historically had provinces and, later, dioceses. Province doesn't really work in this scenario, from my perspective, so another term would be needed.
What would the designation be? Not the individual locations, but the term? The Romans historically had provinces and, later, dioceses. Province doesn't really work in this scenario, from my perspective, so another term would be needed.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
"Germania" - in fact a part of Gaul - would most likely be part of the state of "Gallia"; think of the late empire administrative division. A territory named "Germania" would only be created if the Romans really control today's Germany, after that we'll maybe see the union of the two shores of the Rhine (as territories).
Actually the romans had a kind of federal system until the social war in 90 BC. The italian tribes and regions were no province but socii. Socii payed no tax, enjoyed self administration, but were obliged to military support.
With the conquest of Sicilia and Sardinia, the romans had the choice to expand this socii-system. It could had become the rule. Not very likely as we discussed in this other thread, but not fully impossible.
Now coming back to the terms:
Provincia just means task or area of responsibility. The area of responsibility of a roman magistrate. But in a federal system you got no roman governor. Now if the romans develop a more federal system in later times, I doubt, they would change the term provincia. Because over the centuries the meaning of provincia changed and became a synonyme for a part of the empire. And finally provincia fits very well into a federal system. The provincia which was the area of responsibility of a roman magistrate now becomes the provincia of an elected local council or magistrate. Provincia, meaning area of responsibility, still fits perfectly.
If as described above, the romans choose a different route of expansion after the 1st punic war, they would most probably use the same word they used for the territories of the socii, which was civitas.
Unfortunately civitates were rather small. The Tres Galliae for example had 63 civitates. Some of them bigger ones like the civitas of the Aedui or Averni. I could imagine, that civitas could become the term for bigger areas too in a more federal system. Because it was already a synonyme for city-state including all the surrounding territories.
Multiple civitates worked loosely together in a consilium provinciae. The greek word for such a council of multiple civitates is Koinon. The greek Koinon was the blueprint for all later roman consilii. Here is the third opportunity if the term Koinon develops into this direction.
So I guess, depending on the time, the federalization starts, it could be Provincia, Civitas or Koinon. Well it even could become Diocesis, if the process starts rather late. But who believes, that this miracle of federalization could happen that late? If not provincia, I prefer civitas: Civitas Gallorum, or plural Civitates Tres Galliae.
With the conquest of Sicilia and Sardinia, the romans had the choice to expand this socii-system. It could had become the rule. Not very likely as we discussed in this other thread, but not fully impossible.
Now coming back to the terms:
Provincia just means task or area of responsibility. The area of responsibility of a roman magistrate. But in a federal system you got no roman governor. Now if the romans develop a more federal system in later times, I doubt, they would change the term provincia. Because over the centuries the meaning of provincia changed and became a synonyme for a part of the empire. And finally provincia fits very well into a federal system. The provincia which was the area of responsibility of a roman magistrate now becomes the provincia of an elected local council or magistrate. Provincia, meaning area of responsibility, still fits perfectly.
If as described above, the romans choose a different route of expansion after the 1st punic war, they would most probably use the same word they used for the territories of the socii, which was civitas.
Unfortunately civitates were rather small. The Tres Galliae for example had 63 civitates. Some of them bigger ones like the civitas of the Aedui or Averni. I could imagine, that civitas could become the term for bigger areas too in a more federal system. Because it was already a synonyme for city-state including all the surrounding territories.
Multiple civitates worked loosely together in a consilium provinciae. The greek word for such a council of multiple civitates is Koinon. The greek Koinon was the blueprint for all later roman consilii. Here is the third opportunity if the term Koinon develops into this direction.
So I guess, depending on the time, the federalization starts, it could be Provincia, Civitas or Koinon. Well it even could become Diocesis, if the process starts rather late. But who believes, that this miracle of federalization could happen that late? If not provincia, I prefer civitas: Civitas Gallorum, or plural Civitates Tres Galliae.
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I think your federate States are far far too big.
If you want the federation to hold in such a diverse empire, you need smaller regions that could be equivalent to former provinces : "dividet ut regnat".
Have Spain and Gaul divided in something like 2 or 3 federate States, have Egypt divided in 2 States, ... etc.
If you want the federation to hold in such a diverse empire, you need smaller regions that could be equivalent to former provinces : "dividet ut regnat".
Have Spain and Gaul divided in something like 2 or 3 federate States, have Egypt divided in 2 States, ... etc.
I guess you mean "divide et impera" ?
However I agree. Smaller states make much more sense. Self administration does not work very well in ancient times, if too many competing tribes or cities are involved.
Roman provinces were already divided into iuridical districts called conventus. For example Lusitania was divided into 3, Asia into 6-8. Also the smaller provinces, Diocletian introduced, were supposed to ease and intensify civil administration.
Well here is another term we could use for these territories: conventus
Some terms used in this map are not likely to happen in latin. Others make not that much sense geographically, politically and militarily. Most dioceses of Diocletian made a lot of sense. I do not expect much differences for territories bigger than a province. Just if we talk about 0-600 AD.
Hellenia is most probably called Macedonia et Achaia and does not include Thracia and Moesia. The lower Danube with Moesia and Thracia (and Dacia) is an important front. So is the upper Danube with Pannonia, Noricum and perhaps Dalmatia as its Hinterland. If Germania does not belong to Gallia, the two Germania, Raetia and Belgica might become combined. Tingitana is geographically heavily divided from the rest of Africa, why it belonged to Hispania in the 4th century. Eastern Mauretania and Numidia were always more oriented towards Africa proconsularis. Anatolia is also rather called Asia or Asia minor in latin.
But as mentioned above, I doubt any kind of ancient federalism does work on that scale with such big entities.
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Hey, my map was simply something temptative, I'm surprised users were actually discussing borders and names
Ok, Ok
But you wrote something about a reasonable division. Well, I just dared to slightly disagree.
Why does 'provincia' not work? All you have to do is extend the meaning so Italy is one of them.
Diocese could also work.
It depends so very heavily, no doubt, on HOW this unlikely event comes to pass.