Factors needed for successful Nazi invasion of the Soviets
- Thread starter TheNordicBrit
- Start date
Indeed Ukriane was never going to be a good Nazi puppet whatever the Germans did. To be frank whatever the Ukraineian far-right says Russians & Ukranians are about as close to being one nation as Germans & Austrians or Scots & English.
The Isolated cases of Germans being welcomed and given bread & salt etc has been blown far out of proportion, it’s equivalent of saying that Vichy France proves the French were Pro-Nazi in WW2. You find collaborationists & people wanting to save their skin everywhere under every military occupation.
As for Japan attacking the far-east, well you'd need the Battle of Khalkhyn Gol and others to go a lot better for the IJA. It was the poor showing during the Soviet-Japanese Borders Wars as well as the war in China that caused Japan to look south. (As well as the lack of oil & rubber) So you'd need to handwave the US oil embargo too.
I never suggested that the Ukraine would've made a good puppet of the 3rd Reich. I was just saying that there is a plausible chance that Germany could've used the Ukraine as a pawn. Even if they only garnered the support of the extreme right minority in the country, they could've still benefitted from just leaving the general population be instead of wading into a bloody nazification program immediatley and making instant enemies. Most people are neutral and dont want to be bothered anyways no matter where you are on earth. Basically, Hitler could've feigned non interest in the "liberated territories" and finish the job at hand, namely decimating the soviet union, then They would always have time in the future to go back to continue exterminating jews, political dissidents and other undesirbles after the threat of stalin had been nixed.
I Blame Communism
Banned
But that minority was confined to the west. In a far-left society, far-right groups seldom have much influence and organisation. And in Galicia, there was limited co-operation (SS-Galizien).
As I say, they needed to take food. And then since partisans are inevitable (there were the Red Army men escaped from the kessels, ieological communists (they certainly existed) and people who just don't like beimng invaded), the Germans have to fight them. They did this by burning villages. That was just Nazi practice, and made escalation unavoidable.
It wasn't "Nazification" so much as feeding the troops and fighting the partisans, all without any regard for human decendy and civilisation. Add in the total lack of criminal responsibility for crimes against Soviets (and German soldiers had already gotten off with attrocioties scot-free in Poland, and Yugoslavia, and occasionally western Europe too).
Not everyone was a partisan: most people tried to stay alive and help their country in whatever small way they could. If Germans or partisans took your food, it was all the same.
Attempts to "turn the population against the partisans" never got anywhere. Being an invader is bad for PR.
Hitler, psychologically, could do no such thing, but that's no matter: "feigning non-interest" means turning everywhere were there isn't an actual German division over the Soviets. There were functioning collective farms deep in Belorussian partisan country as it was.
George Carty
Banned
Indeed - as Adam Tooze shows, Nazi genocide (including the Jewish Holocaust) was driven by a desperate food shortage within Nazi-occupied Europe.
Incidentally, what reforms allow today's EU to be so agriculturally productive that it pays farmers to "set aside" land, while 1940s Europe was incapable of feeding itself properly, leading its strongest nation to launch a genocidal invasion of Russia in order to gain more farmland? One factor may be diversion of nitrates from fertilizers to explosives, but surely that would only have been an issue after the war started?
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BlairWitch749
Banned
I've said it in other threads and it was an essential element of my TL Manstein changes the world.
Delay operation Typhoon till the spring of '42 and the Germans can win the war.
The Germans had a non stop string of victories and army group center used the break (when 2nd panzer army went to the Ukraine) to build extremely strong defensive positions on the Oka river (used with great effect by Model during Operation Mars)
If the Germans forgoe Typhoon the Russian's do not get the morale boost of throwing the Germans back from the capital nor do the Germans get so chopped up from being overextended in horrible weather conditions. The Soviet's will still try a winter attack with their Siberian Corps but they will be attacking powerful defensive lines, not troops in the open freezing their asses off and get torn up big time. The Germans would keep the initiative and be able to resume the offensive in the late spring with their forces fresh an intact either for a lunge as Moscow or something like case blue. Without the morale victory of the '41 counter offensive Stalin's position is far from secure and his need to seek peace
Delay operation Typhoon till the spring of '42 and the Germans can win the war.
The Germans had a non stop string of victories and army group center used the break (when 2nd panzer army went to the Ukraine) to build extremely strong defensive positions on the Oka river (used with great effect by Model during Operation Mars)
If the Germans forgoe Typhoon the Russian's do not get the morale boost of throwing the Germans back from the capital nor do the Germans get so chopped up from being overextended in horrible weather conditions. The Soviet's will still try a winter attack with their Siberian Corps but they will be attacking powerful defensive lines, not troops in the open freezing their asses off and get torn up big time. The Germans would keep the initiative and be able to resume the offensive in the late spring with their forces fresh an intact either for a lunge as Moscow or something like case blue. Without the morale victory of the '41 counter offensive Stalin's position is far from secure and his need to seek peace
Urban fox, the Ukrainians might have embraced the Germans under the assumption that no one could be more brutal and batshit insane than Stalin. Alas, they were in for an early shock.
The argument that the USSR was saved by the time spent on the German conquest of Greece and Yugoslavia is extremely dubious and the only German officers who made that claim after the war were often making claims contrary to what they said, wrote in their diaries, etc. at the time.
In fact over 90% of the units involved in Yugoslavia and Greece were never intended for the first wave of invasion and the date of Barbarossa was set for June 22 due to inclement weather and the desire not to invade a sea of mud in late May/early June rather than any Balkan diversion.
George Carty, what is this garbage that Nazi Germany's genocidal behavior was based on food shortages?
The argument that the USSR was saved by the time spent on the German conquest of Greece and Yugoslavia is extremely dubious and the only German officers who made that claim after the war were often making claims contrary to what they said, wrote in their diaries, etc. at the time.
In fact over 90% of the units involved in Yugoslavia and Greece were never intended for the first wave of invasion and the date of Barbarossa was set for June 22 due to inclement weather and the desire not to invade a sea of mud in late May/early June rather than any Balkan diversion.
George Carty, what is this garbage that Nazi Germany's genocidal behavior was based on food shortages?
backstab
Banned
Let me see...
Armenische Legion
Azerbajdzansche Legion
Böhler-Brigade
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Division
Galizisches SS Freiwilligen Regiment 4 (Polizei)
Galizisches SS Freiwilligen Regiment 5 (Polizei)
Galizisches SS Freiwilligen Regiment 6 (Polizei)
Galizisches SS Freiwilligen Regiment 7 (Polizei)
Galizisches SS Freiwilligen Regiment 8 (Polizei)
Georgische Legion
162. (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division
600. (Russische) Infanterie-Division
650. (Russische) Infanterie-Division
Kalmücken-Kavallerie-Korps - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll
Kalmücken-Legion - See Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll
Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll
Kaminski Brigade - See RONA
Kaukasischer Waffen-Verband der SS
1. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Division
2. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Division
Nordkaukasische Legion
Osttürkischer Waffen-Verband der SS
Russkaya Osvoboditel'naya Armiya (ROA/POA)
Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armija (RONA)
Sonderverband Bergmann
Tataren-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS
Turkestanische Legion
SS-Wach-Bataillon Nordwest
Waffen-Gebirgs-Brigade der SS (tatarische Nr. 1)
Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (weißruthenische Nr. 1)
14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr. 1)
29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 1)
30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weissruthenische Nr. 1)
Waffen-Sturm-Brigade Kaminski
Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA
Wolgatatarische Legion
A bit more than a division ...
I Blame Communism
Banned
When I said "Russian", I meant "Russian" (and in practice Belorussian and east Ukrainian, but that's a bleeding mouthful), not "Soviet". Going through this, I've adressed most already.
Three ethnic specimins of the PoW battalions I mentioned. They were poorly-armed, poorly-trained, almost useless anti-partisan bands that melted on contact with actual Soviet troops, and this why they were all sent to France after Kursk.
Likewise: more ragged Caucasian anti-partisans.
I've mentioned this disproportionately small force raised from one corner of Ukraine already, after religious concessions. It was also subject to severe entryism by the less-than-reliable OUN, if I recall rightly.
Like the Armenians and Azeris, except that in one of the wars most memorable wtf moments, they managed to liberate Texel from the Germans.
More propaganda formations of dubious military value...
Glorified Schuma, from the scant sources available. The "one divison" I alluded to was the one raised in 1945.
The formatting of this sequence of small horse-cavalry scout bands drawn from ap persecuted ethnic group that had a lot of reason to be anti-Soviet (and yet still had its Heroes of the Soviet Union) seems to confirm that you've copied a list from somewhere without much knowledge of the various auxilliary formations.
Schuma permitted to wear a Russian tricolour.
Chilled in Slovakia achieving nothing, I believe.
The cossacks were a special case because of the unrelenting attacks on cossack society by the Stalinist regime.
And plenty (I think the majority) still fought for the Soviets. How many German communists formed units to defend the fatherland in 1945?
That there was a Circassian revolt taking advantage of the German advance is true and an actual issue.
Wow, how many ways can these Germans spell "hungry Uzbeks with no morale who want to go home and not starve to death"?
As I suspected: duplication.
A few comapnies of police in Poland.
More understrength battalions... the sum of these units probably couldn't beat a single strong, well-supplied latter-war Russian infantry division. They were partisan hunters or nothing at all.
Never heard of it, boss. It says "battalion" on the tin, so it was probably a weak company.
Okay, I think the Germans were just seeing how many differant ways they could re-arrange the words.
The boody remnants of another formation on the list.
Thr rolled-together police detachments, already addressed.
Duplication duplication.
Never engaged the Soviets.
High, Kamiski! High, RONA! Weren't you the same thing?
Even more militias. If anyone thinks the Tatars were planning an uprising, I suggest they investigate the name of Makhmut Gareev.
Questionable. Anyway, a bit less than Soviet defeat.
Very early Adolf was clear about how he did things even before the war when it cam to ''sub-humans''.
Agreed and even if it was true a few extra divisions couple and weeks saved wouldn’t = Germans take Moscow. It’s more like to = German divisions trapped in Moscow after Soviet counter-attack.
Yeah, rather than them being those wacky Nazi's
Urban fox, superb point raising what would have likely happened had the Germans just barely reached Moscow as the temperature collapsed and Zhukov's armies arrived.
Weather aside, pretty much eveything that could go right did go right for the Germans during Barbarossa the plan was unrealistic to the extreme. Stalin’s relentless drive to snatch every possible defeat from the jaws of victory nearly made it work.
I never got the reach Moscow = Germans win idea. The Heer was too over-stretched for encirclement & bypass to be an option and combat in some Soviets cites lasted for months.
For the Germans to win they'd need to do so in 1942, after maybe taking Leningrad and closeing down major operations in the north.. Perhaps trying to destory the Soviet armies guarding Moscow rather than the suicide run at Stalingrad.
Axis allies pulling a few million new troops from somewhere the wouldnt hurt either.
I never got the reach Moscow = Germans win idea. The Heer was too over-stretched for encirclement & bypass to be an option and combat in some Soviets cites lasted for months.
For the Germans to win they'd need to do so in 1942, after maybe taking Leningrad and closeing down major operations in the north.. Perhaps trying to destory the Soviet armies guarding Moscow rather than the suicide run at Stalingrad.
Axis allies pulling a few million new troops from somewhere the wouldnt hurt either.
That one Russian division
My understanding is that the "one Russian division" in dispute up thread was formed after the war was essentially lost, (and after being delayed for several years by Hitler's opposition) and defected to help an anti-Nazi (and anti-communist) uprising in Slovakia after the Germans had clearly lost the war. That doesn't tell us much about how such divisions would have reacted in say 1942 or 1943 if they had been formed then.
As to the lack of Russian or Ukrainian divisions in the German army or SS: To argue that lack of those formations reflects Russian or Ukrainian sentiment about the war requires two things: (a) Demonstrating that the Germans wanted to form more such divisions, and (b) That they failed to do so due to lack of manpower willing to participate in those divisions.
A more likely scenario, and one that the historic record supports, is that lack of Ukrainian and Russian divisions raised was due to the fact that as an ideological and practical matter the Germans, or at least the top leadership didn't want large formations of armed Ukrainians or Russians as allies at the time when raising those formations would have been possible. Hitler felt, probably correctly, that allowing those formations would restrict the German ability to exploit the populations under their control. The Germans arrested Ukrainian nationalists, including ones that had fought against the Soviets in the early stages of the German invasion, and including ones who were actually employed by the German army.
The German army (and later the SS) had to play all kinds of games to get the few divisions they did get from Slavic-speaking people.
The Ukrainians and Russians were just as human as you and I. Put yourself in their shoes. You almost certainly have relatives and friends who have been shot or starved to death by Stalin and company. If you have an IQ over 40 you know that the country is being run by a madman. At the same time, you know that madman has a very long reach and you want yourself and your family to live.
It also doesn't take long or a high IQ to figure out that the Germans aren't your friends. They make that very clear.
So, what are you going to do? Obvious course of action: Keep your head down. Figure out who is going to win. End up enthusiastically supporting that side. Hope (futilely in most cases) that the nut jobs at the top will be grateful for your role in making the victory of whichever side wins more lopsided. Support for the partisans got a lot stronger after mid-1943, when it became obvious that the Soviets were going to at least survive and probably win.
My understanding is that the "one Russian division" in dispute up thread was formed after the war was essentially lost, (and after being delayed for several years by Hitler's opposition) and defected to help an anti-Nazi (and anti-communist) uprising in Slovakia after the Germans had clearly lost the war. That doesn't tell us much about how such divisions would have reacted in say 1942 or 1943 if they had been formed then.
As to the lack of Russian or Ukrainian divisions in the German army or SS: To argue that lack of those formations reflects Russian or Ukrainian sentiment about the war requires two things: (a) Demonstrating that the Germans wanted to form more such divisions, and (b) That they failed to do so due to lack of manpower willing to participate in those divisions.
A more likely scenario, and one that the historic record supports, is that lack of Ukrainian and Russian divisions raised was due to the fact that as an ideological and practical matter the Germans, or at least the top leadership didn't want large formations of armed Ukrainians or Russians as allies at the time when raising those formations would have been possible. Hitler felt, probably correctly, that allowing those formations would restrict the German ability to exploit the populations under their control. The Germans arrested Ukrainian nationalists, including ones that had fought against the Soviets in the early stages of the German invasion, and including ones who were actually employed by the German army.
The German army (and later the SS) had to play all kinds of games to get the few divisions they did get from Slavic-speaking people.
The Ukrainians and Russians were just as human as you and I. Put yourself in their shoes. You almost certainly have relatives and friends who have been shot or starved to death by Stalin and company. If you have an IQ over 40 you know that the country is being run by a madman. At the same time, you know that madman has a very long reach and you want yourself and your family to live.
It also doesn't take long or a high IQ to figure out that the Germans aren't your friends. They make that very clear.
So, what are you going to do? Obvious course of action: Keep your head down. Figure out who is going to win. End up enthusiastically supporting that side. Hope (futilely in most cases) that the nut jobs at the top will be grateful for your role in making the victory of whichever side wins more lopsided. Support for the partisans got a lot stronger after mid-1943, when it became obvious that the Soviets were going to at least survive and probably win.
Even if the Nazis weren't ably to raise divisions from the occupied regions, that does not imply that there couldn't be raised divisions if the Germans, from the start, followed a overall different approach toward the poeple in the conquered regions. Which, obviously, implies that they are no Nazis...
Which in turn allows for other butterflies as well, as a non-Nazi German leadership might be able to reach a stable peace with France and Britain as well as establishing a broad coalition, including the amount of cooperation seen in "Rommel's Barbarossa", to fight communism. The Baltic states will become Allies if Germany truly "liberates" them from the Soviets. And a new independent Ukraine which collaborates at least economically could be achieved as well. Give the peasants their land back. Pay for everything you take. Listen to Ukrainian demands. Let them get rid of communism on their own.
Which in turn allows for other butterflies as well, as a non-Nazi German leadership might be able to reach a stable peace with France and Britain as well as establishing a broad coalition, including the amount of cooperation seen in "Rommel's Barbarossa", to fight communism. The Baltic states will become Allies if Germany truly "liberates" them from the Soviets. And a new independent Ukraine which collaborates at least economically could be achieved as well. Give the peasants their land back. Pay for everything you take. Listen to Ukrainian demands. Let them get rid of communism on their own.
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Very simple, a few minor changes to NSDAP ideology, have Hitler see Slavs as europeans instead of asians.
That way not only would he increase the recruiting ground for axis forces but preparations for a long and hard war instead of a short one.
Alternatively, have Stalin and his regime be as it was according to Goebbels, within weeks a military coup in the Kremlin occures, within a few months the command structure of the Red Army and Sovietic governement completely breakes appart and the populations of the entire soviet-union start another revolution, this time against the bolcheviks.
Before the end of 1941, campaign have turned to setting up a client state in one part of the Soviet-Union, another part becomes Lebensraum.
Japan does not attack Hawaii, as oil will come from the former soviet-union, at least not before Hitler knocks Britain out of the war...
They had been tools of Warsaw for almost 20 years, war with Poland came before the Soviet-Union, so yeah.
Not all faced such problems hovewer, bandera and his friends where allowed plenty of massacres far from the front, against their "fellow ukrainians".
That way not only would he increase the recruiting ground for axis forces but preparations for a long and hard war instead of a short one.
Alternatively, have Stalin and his regime be as it was according to Goebbels, within weeks a military coup in the Kremlin occures, within a few months the command structure of the Red Army and Sovietic governement completely breakes appart and the populations of the entire soviet-union start another revolution, this time against the bolcheviks.
Before the end of 1941, campaign have turned to setting up a client state in one part of the Soviet-Union, another part becomes Lebensraum.
Japan does not attack Hawaii, as oil will come from the former soviet-union, at least not before Hitler knocks Britain out of the war...
They had been tools of Warsaw for almost 20 years, war with Poland came before the Soviet-Union, so yeah.
Not all faced such problems hovewer, bandera and his friends where allowed plenty of massacres far from the front, against their "fellow ukrainians".
Germany does need a different mindset regarding the Soviet campaign. Realize that victory won't come in a single swift campaign, but will require a second year of campaigning, minimum. If Germany's armies reach Moscow by the end of the 1941 campaigning season, great. But don't plan for that as a goal.
Plan for taking Leningrad in 1941. This provides a major port and logistics base for the 1942 campaign, as well as having the Finns being on the northern flank. Build up logistic bases in the newly conquered Soviet territory for the 1942 campaign.
Plan for taking Leningrad in 1941. This provides a major port and logistics base for the 1942 campaign, as well as having the Finns being on the northern flank. Build up logistic bases in the newly conquered Soviet territory for the 1942 campaign.
It is really difficult to get any set of circumstances that lead to a German win in the war without a serious POD involving Stalin (who, despite being a ruthless bastard who needs to slow roasted in hell for eternity, held the USSR together in some really rocky times).
At a minimum you need:
Hitler to allow the Italians to swing in Africa. Better if Hitler can keep them out of Africa altogether.
Don't kill your Army trying to take Leningrad. Threaten it and keep up the pressure, but do not conduct useless attack after useless attack.
Keep at least one more Panzer division with 6th Army.
Take the Crossing in Stalingrad no later than September, the earlier in the month the better.
Since you have an extra 90,000 or so German troops thanks to staying out of Africa, not to mention some extra armor and aircraft use them to secure 6th Army's flanks.
This at least gives you a chance. Now all you need is for Stalin to have a stroke when Stalingrad falls and the Nazi's have a shot.
Likely? Not hardly. But still on the edge of possible.
At a minimum you need:
Hitler to allow the Italians to swing in Africa. Better if Hitler can keep them out of Africa altogether.
Don't kill your Army trying to take Leningrad. Threaten it and keep up the pressure, but do not conduct useless attack after useless attack.
Keep at least one more Panzer division with 6th Army.
Take the Crossing in Stalingrad no later than September, the earlier in the month the better.
Since you have an extra 90,000 or so German troops thanks to staying out of Africa, not to mention some extra armor and aircraft use them to secure 6th Army's flanks.
This at least gives you a chance. Now all you need is for Stalin to have a stroke when Stalingrad falls and the Nazi's have a shot.
Likely? Not hardly. But still on the edge of possible.
I Blame Communism
Banned
I absolutely agree that people are people, not everybody in Schuma was a monster and some people in Partisans were, and so on and so forth. Two things, however:
1) It's easy to underestimate the Stalin cult. People who did have family killed by his thugs cried at his death. The Soviet regime was totalitarian, and nobody questions that the Nazis and Hitler had a hypnotic power over otherwise ordinary, decent Germans.
2) People pull together when their country is invaded. Everyone seems to go further than "people have to eat and make little compromises with the occupier" when it comes to occupied Soviets and assume they were apathetic and had no patriotic feeling at all.
Here's an exemplary story: Vladimir Kristapovich Kantovski, born 1923, was sentenced to ten years hard labour in early 1941 for protesting against the arrest of one of his teachers at Moscow University. That is, an intelligent young man with no love of Stalinism who has personally witnessed and experienced it abuses, now in a GULAG behind the Urals: harsh, but he's young, strong, and thus essentially safe for the duration of this war.
He volunteered for penal service. He volunteered for about the worst job in the war. He wasn't the only one.
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