Eyes Turned Skywards

Given the accounts from Apollo astronauts about the joys of lunar regolith I'd say that a dedicated lunar EVA suit would be a necessity, especially now that they're doing a half-dozen or more EVA's per person.

I have to wonder something, I wonder what the folks at NASA would think of this story if they read it.

It would probably depend on which center you look at. Here at Marshall there seems to be a fairly even mix of nostalgic shuttle huggers and BFR zealots. The shuttle huggers would naturally be aghast and some may even go into shock. The BFR zealots would be a mixed bag. I've met some that think ATK and their solids can do no wrong, but there are others who want to bring back the F-1 to power a new booster (and in fact are working towards that somewhat, link, link).
 
A possible answer to that is they don't want their Apollo CM contaminated with a couple of weeks worth of lunar dust. As I understand it, part of the reason that the Artemis Ascent Module (which doubles as a Mission Module) has a separate airlock (which is left on the Moon) is to have an area you can store the suits without getting quite so much dust around the habitat - it's a 'dirt-lock' as well as an airlock.
If they use the same suits as IVA suits, that would mean a lot of (probably ineffective) cleaning to stop the AM and CM getting dirty and causing respiratory and other problems.
Using the moonsuits for IVA could also make any damage to them sustained from a sharp lunar rock more critical (assuming it wasn't fatal in the first place). Rather than just taking one crew member out of EVA rotation, it could threaten their safety on the return trip. As a minimum it would make carrying at least one spare suit mandatory.
So overall it makes sense to me that there would be a separate, lightweight IVA suit for ascent and landing operations, with the surface suits left on the Moon with the airlock module.

That makes sense. I just think back to Apollo when they only had one suit. So a IVA suit similar to the shuttle ACES suit? From my understanding on Apollo they conducted the re-entry in a shirt sleeve environment. I think Apollo 7 was the only one where they wore the full pressure suits for re-entry. If they leave the Lunar EVA suits on the surface that would mean they would need to bring the ACES suits down to the surface and then wear them during the ascent from the Lunar Surface. However considering the ACES suits are much lighter than a regular EVA suit that might be the best option. From a perspective of lunar dust control not much has been mentioned how that will be controlled in this ATL beyond the use of a airlock.
 
I wanted to bring up the idea of space suits that have a hatch in their backs, and remain outside the pressurized part of the spacecraft. I believe other people here following this thread know a lot more about this notion than I do, which did not prevent me from speculating at some probably undesirable length.:eek: But I did refrain from posting it!

I can certainly think of drawbacks and risks, but it seems like an idea worth considering even so. One drawback is that there ought to be a separate hatch for each spacesuit, which adds up to a lot of area when there are five of them (or more, to provide backup hatches in case one is damaged). I figure now, if possible the 5 lunar EVA suits should be on the Lander, along with 5 other lighter suits to be worn during landing and docking (the same suits also being used during launch from Earth and reentry). But only one hatch on the lander with the suit for the first crewmember designated to leave the ship already attached; that person goes out, and gets the next one from storage nearby and attaches it to the hatch, then the two of them aid the third one out and so on; they leave their lighter suits in the Lander which powers down once they have all left. There is a second habitable volume; the Hab/Lab which was previously landed, offers much more habitable space due to being a lightweight inflatable structure. Therefore there might well be plenty of exterior space available for a panel or three for five or six individual hatches, allowing the five to have their own separate doors into the Hab. There might also be some spare suits there.

The dust issue is then dealt with pretty well; sample items (Lunar geological ones plus, for landings near previous landing sites, pieces of those older artifacts) will presumably be collected in bags, but these bags can then be placed in a second, quite clean bag which is sealed, then passed into the Hab/Lab via a cargo lock; with the second bag no dust is released into the air inside, and the samples are neatly vacuum-sealed for storage. The crew themselves obviously would not bring in any dust either if their suits stay outside! Dust might tend to foul the seal between a spacesuit real egress/entry hatch and the one on the Hab/Lab, but with adequate reserves of some neutral gas (helium, used to pressurize the gases in the descent stage, comes to mind, or residual hydrogen from the descent fuel supply is harmless in small quantities) or air, the seal might be nearly made, to within a millimeter or so, then any of these gases can blow the rims of these two hatches clean for a tight seal; very little gas being expended in doing so.

That pretty well summarizes the pros of this notion that I've thought of; aside from danger of fouling by dust of course it seems a bit risky to trust that seal on five different hatches and five spacesuits again and again, and the suits still have to be curtained from outside threats while not being used. I can think of others too.
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A completely different idea is to rely on spacesuits that have no such back hatches but are donned, in the usual way as developed thus far OTL, but the airlock includes a multi-angle shower! Water sprayed in (after substantial air has been let in firs) perhaps mixed with some detergent can flush off the dust, most of it anyway. The water can be filtered and reused, I'd think.
 
I must make a poor Whedonite, but I'm actually sadder / more gut-punched at Miyazaki. The world would be much the poorer without the warmth of his films.

That said, on balance I still want to live ITTL. (Ann Richards, VPOTUS, would be enough, even without all that space stuff.) Though I do question a bit the idea that Gore would have (much of) an easier time than Clinton; IMO after seeing Watergate and Iran-Contra as "criminalizing politics" the Republicans were not going to see *any* Democratic president as legitimate. That Gore will give them less ammunition than Clinton does not mean (a) the House won't latch on to something to investigate (and perhaps even impeach--I think we often forget, nearly twenty years on, how much of it really was--openly--"revenge for Nixon"), or (b) the same general social climate and culture wars won't lead to a similar level of toxicity. I'd be very surprised if a there weren't "Gore Death Lists" the way there were Clinton Death Lists ("50 People the Clintons Murdered!")
Nor will the media climate be all that noticeably different; the press corps will have had the same 20-out-of-24-years to see a Republican president as normal, nor do I think their hatred of Gore will be butterflied (though perhaps a *bit* less than hatred of Clinton as the class issue won't be so severe).

Here at Marshall
Am I reading this right...? :)
 
Am I reading this right...? :)
No, I was a bit too vague there. I probably should have said, "here in Huntsville". No affiliation with MSFC aside from friends, acquaintances, classmates, etc. Those were just my observations based on my interactions with NASA personnel on base and around town.
 
A completely different idea is to rely on spacesuits that have no such back hatches but are donned, in the usual way as developed thus far OTL, but the airlock includes a multi-angle shower! Water sprayed in (after substantial air has been let in firs) perhaps mixed with some detergent can flush off the dust, most of it anyway. The water can be filtered and reused, I'd think.

Hmm, I don't think that will fly. IIRC, when moondust interacts with water it basically turns into concrete. That would be absolute hell on the filters, even assuming you could get off the sludge.

I like the idea of suit-locks, but as I understand the concept was considered a bit too immature ITTL for use on Artemis. I don't know too much about how far it's advanced IOTL, but I can imagine a nasty situation if you tried to back into a suit-lock only to find some dust (that bloody dust!) has worn away a seal or dinged a connection and you can't get a clean connection. :eek:
 
Found this report online that has been a interesting read in parts.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/TM-2005-213610.pdf

It is the report by NASA - The Effects on Lunar Dust on EVA Systems During the Apollo Missions.

Gets into detailed feedback from all Apollo mission astronauts on dealing with Lunar Dust and what they obeserved that worked and didn't work. Interesting things like apollo 15 was trying to use the Jettison bags on the feet of space suits to control dust. Also how apparently the dust caused Schmitt to sneeze a lot. It is a intereting read if you have time.

So far in my reading a couple of observances.

Controlling the dust on the lower parts of the suit is most critical since that is where most of it collects.

Having lube available after every EVA to work it on the zippers is also important.

The filtration system on the LM was fairly good at getting the dust out of the air. However some Astronauts commented how they removed their helmets and gloves to soon and it might have been better to keep them on and let the filtration system remove more of the dust first. Apparently getting Lunar Dust in your eyes really sucks.

Having something to clean the floor of the LM is also a good thing to control all the dust that is tracked.

The vacumn in the LM was fairly good at removing lunar dust. The suits looked dirty but the excess dust was removed and just the ground in dust remained.

Proably in this ATL with a airlock a lot of this will be mitigated since the astronauts can don and remove their space suits in a separate area to the living compartment.

The other idea I read online was using static electricity. Apparently because of how the lunar dust is charged their is a theory that using low voltage electricity of the correct charge could remove the dust fairly easily. Maybe some type of wand that puts out a charge with a vacumn
 
Part III, Post 23: The Comet and Asteroids Pioneer Program
Good afternoon everyone! It's a little late to be that time, but it is nonetheless. Between me being up rather later than I should have been watching Twitch Plays Pokemon and Workable Goblin struggling with some of the technical content of this post (asteroid and comet target selection is a serious issue, due to the shear number of bodies possible as targets), this post wasn't ready to go up earlier today. However, now it is, and now it shall!

Eyes Turned Skywards, Part III: Post #23

By the early 1960s, it had gradually become clear that asteroids and comets, the “minor planets” of the astronomer, could be a potentially lethal threat to life on Earth. First the scientific community, then the general public became aware of the potential danger of a rock from space striking with the equivalent energy of hundreds to millions of nuclear bombs going off at once. Such power could level vast areas, raise enormous tsunamis to scour clean whole ocean basins, and even throw thousands of tons of debris into the atmosphere, dimming the sun’s light and cooling the Earth for years. Depending on the size of the rock, millions to billions of people could die, and civilization along with them.

Despite the magnitude of the possible threat, and a spate of disaster movies and science-fiction novels relying on the threat of an imminent impact for their plot in the late 1970s, by the early 1980s fear of impacts had faded among the public. The closer and hence more threatening spectre of nuclear war had once again raised its head, and just as the first spaceflights to minor planets were taking place, and palaeontologists were beginning to take seriously the possibility that impacts might have been responsible for past mass extinctions, interest had dropped to an all-time low.

It took Comet Galileo to dispel the cloak of obscurity that the entire field had been languishing in for the better part of a decade. Even before the comet’s discovery, Congress had been funding a study into the threat of asteroid impacts, perhaps as a result of lessening Cold War tensions. Shortly afterwards, the report, termed the “Spaceguard report” after an organization featured in Arthur C. Clarke’s Rendezvous with Rama, was published, recommending a fairly modest program to detect more of the near-Earth asteroid population, and identify any potentially threatening impactors. In the environment of an ongoing election campaign, and then with the switch to the new Gore administration, the report fell into obscurity, but the ideas it contained were merely dormant, not totally lost.

With NASA busy reorganizing itself under the pressure of its new administrator, further action on the impact threat would have to wait for Galileo to hit Jupiter in 1994. Images of the gigantic scars left by the comet’s fragments, many big enough to envelop the entire Earth, were broadcast around the world and even distributed on the burgeoning medium of the Internet, lending a new plausibility to the old disaster movie plot. Shortly afterwards, Gore announced that his administration would be working on methods to minimize the possible danger posed by asteroids and comets to Earth.

To begin with, this would consist simply of the sort of program advocated by the Safeguard report, a government-funded observation program to identify near-Earth asteroids and comets and determine whether any of them might be a threat to Earth. Astronomers were well aware that only a small fraction of objects on Earth-crossing orbits had ever been observed, and identifying any possible threats had always been considered the first step for any asteroid deflection program. However, Gore wanted to go above and beyond simply funding telescopes. From the beginning of his administration, it had been clear that he had a passion for attempting to improve the functioning of the government, and the comets and asteroids offered another ripe field for experimentation.

The problem, in essence, was that planetary exploration was getting too expensive. Since the 1970s, California’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory had dominated robotic planetary exploration in the United States, and had spearheaded a series of highly successful missions--Viking, Voyager, Kirchhoff, Galileo, the Mars Traverse Rovers, VOIR, and Cassini--but for a steep price. Each of these missions had cost over a billion dollars to develop, build, launch, and operate to completion, and costs had only been going up over time, even faster than inflation. Ames, JPL’s Bay Area rival, had had some success operating cheaper missions like Venus and Mars Pioneer, and the Mars Reconnaissance, Lunar Reconnaissance, and Near Earth Asteroid Pioneers, but even their missions had been gradually creeping up in cost as well. This had been well enough in the 1980s, when a relatively flush budget had offered plenty of room for overruns and gold-plating, but in the more straitened environment of the 1990s, with costs to operate Freedom and develop Artemis cutting deep into the budget, the agency simply could not afford more expensive missions, at least not at the rate they had been flying. And yet each of those missions had opened up enough scientific questions for a dozen more probes; even dismissing Saturn as a target, since Cassini had only been launched in 1994 itself, reports produced in the early 1990s listed a plethora of planetary missions scientists wanted. Probes to Europa and Io, the most active of the Galilean moons; an orbiter for Mercury, still only visited by Mariner 10; networks of instruments on the Moon, Mars, even Venus; more expeditions to minor planets, some perhaps returning samples; even sample-return from the Red Planet was on the agenda, despite the cool reception it had gotten from the Gore Administration.

This was a Gordian knot, pitting scientists desperate to go farther against accountants and Congressional delegates equally desperate to keep costs in line, and a perfect place for Gore to once again look for efficiencies in present practice. The most obvious place to start, given the failure of the “common bus” approach used by Ames on its most recent Pioneer missions to significantly reduce costs, was to open up NASA to a little bit of competition. If every mission proposal produced by someone outside of NASA had been stacked up, the results would probably have buried Gore’s desk, if not the entire Oval Office itself, yet no one but NASA had ever flown an American planetary science mission. Interesting concepts, if they were flown at all, were flown by a NASA center. True, the spacecraft themselves were built by outside contractors, but the management was entirely NASA-based. The success of Hubble, which had specifically not been (entirely) managed by NASA, along with a variety of other highly successful NASA programs that depended on NASA facilitating the programs of other organizations, mostly universities and research labs, rather than developing missions themselves, pointed to a new concept of operations. Instead of doing everything in-house, NASA would act similarly to the Department of Energy, maintaining their own research programs while also funding outsiders to design, build, launch, and operate missions. By subjecting proposals to a rigorous cost cap, a popular idea among procurement reformers of the time, uncontrolled cost growth could be controlled, and science could be done for much less money.

Well, in theory at least. In practice, scientists were simultaneously cautious and optimistic about Gore’s proposal; more missions, fulfilling the goals of more scientists would certainly be good, but the cost cap led to a certain degree of skepticism about whether these missions would produce high-quality science, or even be launched (should unexpected issues arise).

It was clear that some kind of proof of concept, a mission undertaken by NASA itself under the new constraints needed to be launched, one that could prove that high-quality science could, indeed, be done on the proverbial shoestring. In many ways, near-Earth comets and asteroids provided the perfect environment for these proving ground missions. Most lie relatively close to Earth, requiring comparatively little delta-V to reach, simplifying command and control, and reducing the size and expense of the booster used to launch missions. Thermal and power demands were also simplified by their inner system location, compared to Mercury or the asteroid belt. And despite previous missions to the minor planets, there were plenty of obvious possibilities for cheap missions.

And, of course, asteroid and comet missions would be relatively easy to sell based on the potential threat posed to Earth. While Spaceguard would have a larger effect on the security of Earth, missions to the minor planets would be more visible, and in some ways just as important. Although many methods of deflecting asteroids had been proposed since the 1960s, many questions remained about the practicality of any of these proposals, and especially how the proposed strategies would interact with asteroidal and cometary internal structure. A nuclear bomb detonating near a monolithic chunk of rock might fragment it, turning a Texas-destroying impact into a hemisphere-devastating one, while the same bomb detonating near a different asteroid, composed of a loosely-bound matrix of rock fragments ranging from boulders to pebbles holding together only from their mutual gravitation might have no effect at all. And while radar observations had been refining estimates of asteroidal properties, there was no substitute for actually visiting asteroids and exploring them directly to quantify their properties.

With targets tacitly selected and program goals largely defined, the next step was to define a list of possible missions. Scientists at Ames, Langley, and Goddard, the three centers selected for an internal competition to design and manage what was expected to be a series of missions, were tasked with analyzing current ideas and previous missions for any opportunities, narrowing the list of possibilities down to just a few relatively simple ones. Each center had their own spin on mission concepts, of course, but in the end they all broadly agreed on which missions made sense and which didn’t.

First to be eliminated were the simplest missions, flybys of single comets or asteroids. With Encke, Halley, Tempel 2, and Anteros already having been visited by spacecraft, there would be little scientific value in another brief encounter. Only slightly longer for the world were missions to rendezvous with further single comets or asteroids; while they would certainly return more scientific data than flybys, and could clarify differences between asteroids or comets of different types, they would still be relatively expensive for what information they provided, and again would duplicate previous missions.

Instead, each of the centers proposed a variant on the idea of multiple flybys or rendezvouses, with different centers proposing different methods of carrying out the mission. Langley’s expert astrodynamicists proposed a multiple flyby mission, exploiting multiple passes by Earth, Venus, and Mars to visit a series of asteroids and comets, while Goddard, in conjunction with Lewis Research Center in Ohio and their electric propulsion masters proposed a multiple orbiter mission, using the unparalleled efficiency of ion drives to slowly travel from target to target, much like Europe’s ongoing Piazzi mission. Ames, less invested in either approach, proposed to split the difference, utilizing a combination of ion propulsion and gravity assists to flyby and rendezvous with several destinations. By comparing data on multiple objects, especially ones of different spectral type, and particularly data from the same instruments, the first comparative studies of near-Earth objects could be performed. Differences in structure that might be relevant for planetary protection could be explored, and a much greater scientific value for the cost could be had than with a simpler and more straightforward mission, without actually increasing that cost very much.

The logical next step, once a reasonable variety of minor planets had been visited, would be to land on some of them. Here, the centers had much less disagreement among themselves, all proposing more or less the same concept of a self-contained, solar powered spacecraft capable of firmly anchoring itself to the tiny worlds it would be visiting. By avoiding radioisotope thermal generators the cost would be greatly reduced, although in exchange the selection of targets would also be narrowed; while plenty of asteroids were available, most known comets traveled too far from the sun for solar-powered landers to operate at their aphelion, at least without making them very large or very simple, while perihelion, with its burst of cometary activity, would be too dangerous to attempt a landing in any case. Nevertheless, enough targets remained that all three were confident a practical one could be found for the comet’s lander.

Once orbiting and landing missions had been completed, most scientists thought the next step should be returning samples of the minor planets to Earth, where laboratories equipped with the latest and greatest instruments, including those developed years or even decades later, could intensively study returned material, producing far more data than ever possible from virtually any number of ordinary missions. Given the low gravity and small size of minor planets compared to ordinary planets, especially the Moon and Mars, it was even possible to contemplate launching sample return missions on the budget Gore’s nebulously defined new program would allow, and all three centers duly proposed them. As with the multiple flyby/rendezvous mission, however, each had a slightly different take on the idea.

Langley, still enamoured by its astrodynamic wizardry, proposed a unique twist on the sample return concept to kick off its series of sample return mission. After the multiple flyby mission, the spacecraft used for it would be modified with a sample collection grid on its forebody, then sent to fly through the coma of an active comet. Cometary dust safely ensconced within the structure, it would be packaged inside a reentry capsule and returned to Earth for study. After this mission, two more would see scaled-up versions of Langley’s lander carrying sample collection instruments and a sample return vehicle dispatched to different objects to collect surface samples. For the cometary mission, specially-designed coolers would provide a cryogenic environment from launch to curation, preserving the sampling environment after collection.

As before, Goddard took a completely different tack, again in collaboration with Lewis. Like Langley, they envisioned reusing the multiple orbiter spacecraft, this time to transport a lander modified with a small sample launch vehicle to any of a number of destinations. Once sample collection was completed, the orbiter would collect the sample container and return it to Earth. By using efficient ion propulsion, more targets could be reached than possible in Langley’s ballistic proposal, and without too much of a price increase; while the complex orbiter increased costs, these were partially offset by a simpler lander and smaller launch vehicle. A mission might even be able to test techniques proposed for minimizing the risk from Mars samples, braking into Earth orbit for sample retrieval by a later Apollo mission or collection and curation at Freedom. Unlike Langley, however, Goddard made no proposal to collect samples from the coma of a comet, preferring instead to focus purely on surface samples.

Ames, meanwhile, continued its trend of standing in between the two. Like Langley, it proposed using direct-return landers, with no separate orbiter element, but like Goddard it ignored the possibility of low-cost coma sample return. Instead, Ames’ proposals mostly focused on minimizing the cost of the landers, going into some detail on possible methods of reusing current developments, enlisting international assistance (Russia in particular was mentioned several times), or saving costs through design.

By the time these studies reached Gore’s desk in mid-1995, the President had more immediate security matters to worry about than asteroid impacts, and it languished for some time before the President brought it up in his FY 1997 budget proposal in early 1996. Between the middle of the previous year and the President’s resumption of interest, a number of changes had been made to the proposed mission sequence, mostly by eliminating proposals that seemed to fit poorly into Gore’s goals for the still-unnamed program. First to go was the multiple comet/asteroid tour mission, with Russia’s Grand Tour mission nearing launch. Largely identical to Langley’s proposed implementation of the mission, duplicating it seemed like a poor scientific value for the cost, despite the low implementation risks.

Next to meet the chopping block had been the comet sample return mission. While scientifically exciting, the complex systems needed to maintain comet surface samples in cryogenic suspension while returning to Earth posed serious development risks, for both time and budget, while the difficult dynamics of reaching most comets would require relatively expensive launch vehicles. For a program intended to demonstrate the possibilities for relatively inexpensive space exploration, the mission was a poor fit at best.

Third up was the coma sample return mission. Initially, this had gotten very positive reviews at Headquarters, where the combination of element reuse and scientifically productive yet simple mission design had been attractive for the same reasons interest in comet sample return had cooled. However, during negotiations with the Japanese over their contributions to the Artemis program, they had mentioned that they were themselves planning a similar mission, and expected to begin a formal program soon--something which indeed obtained formal approval from the Japanese government shortly afterwards. Another derivative of the same basic bus design as Susei and Sakigake, it had a virtually identical mission profile to Langley’s proposal, eschewing complicated electric propulsion or complex sample collection equipment. As with Grand Tour, the presence of a foreign mission made the American version seem less valuable and worth funding.

Of the three remaining mission concepts, returning samples from a near-Earth asteroid stood out as being considerably more complex and likely more expensive than the other two. While Ames, Langley, and Goddard all agreed that it could be done within the desired cost cap, NASA administrators had been less sure, and recommended that the program be structured to attack the simpler lander missions in parallel, while delaying the sample return mission for additional development and study. Of particular interest were methods of further reducing mission cost, such as taking advantage of development for other programs or seeking international partners. France’s CNES had already expressed some interest in partnering with NASA on an asteroid sample return mission, and it seemed entirely possible other partners could be wooed in the future.

Therefore, for the FY 1997 budget NASA had narrowed the proposed Comet and Asteroid phase of what was becoming known as the Pioneer Program into two initial missions, Comet and Asteroid Lander, and one long-term mission, Asteroid Sample Return. The program appealed to Congressional interest in cost-effective exploration, and was easily approved to allow development beginning in late 1996.

Once Congressional approval had been obtained and a budget line created, the first thing Headquarters needed to do was decide which center would actually be responsible for carrying out the planned missions. Given the history of planetary exploration at NASA, it was widely expected only one center would be selected to manage all three missions. At Headquarters, however, thought was proceeding along very different paths, with concerns about how a single center managing the whole program might get, to not put too fine a spin on it, fat and lazy, subverting the cost-saving underpinning of the program.

In a move which surprised nearly everyone, then, Headquarters instead announced that they were dividing up responsibility. The long-term sample return mission would be returned to the centers for study, this time with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory joining Ames, Langley, and Goddard in developing mission concepts. Meanwhile, the asteroid lander and comet lander missions would be divided among Ames, for the first, and Langley, for the second, in the hopes that this division of responsibilities would spur both to do better work, faster and cheaper than their competitor. With its long pedigree of relatively low-cost planetary exploration missions, Ames had been widely viewed as the safe choice among the three, while in turn Langley had been viewed as the moderate--safer than Goddard, which seemed intent on exploiting advanced technology, but more daring than Ames, given its shorter history in the field.

Beyond merely dividing up responsibility among its own centers, Headquarters had returned to actively pursuing foreign involvement, whether that be something as minor as an instrument or two, or as significant and wide-ranging as an entire spacecraft for a Goddard-style sample return mission. The largest success came with bringing CNES, which had already expressed significant interest in the possibility, into the studies being performed by JPL, Ames, Langley, and Goddard, although agencies from Brazil to South Korea had shown interest in some measure of collaboration, and Japan had agreed to provide an instrument for the asteroid lander in exchange for an American instrument for their comet coma mission. While not, of course, part of the developing American Pioneer Program, as it had come to be known, Japan’s mission was widely considered to be part of the same general wave of interest in near-Earth objects, and in some quarters was considered to be virtually a part of the American effort.

As French engineers talked with American scientists about possible collaborations, the sketched-out designs that Ames and Langley had envisioned for their spacecraft began to solidify, confronted with a more concrete reality than before. Both had settled on a simple “box with legs” for their core lander design, intended to tightly grip the surface of a loosely packed asteroid or comet. Langley’s, intended for comets roaming nearly as far out as Jupiter, was noticeably larger than Ames’ design, to accommodate the extra acreage of solar cells needed for power in the dim, cold environs of the outer solar system. Instruments would be mounted on the base of the probe or on its wide, flat sides, as appropriate, while thrusters would hang off the sides, mounted high up to avoid contaminating and disturbing the landing site. Additionally, while JPL had been locked out of the main design competition, both centers had become interested in noises about some type of asteroid rover spacecraft they had heard coming out of Pasadena, being developed for Fobos Together. Despite the growing competition between Ames and Langley, both agreed that a rover would be a very useful addition to their missions, and both contacted JPL inquiring about whether they might be able to have one for not much money. To the surprise of many familiar with NASA’s intragency struggles for power and funding, JPL management was agreeable, and an agreement for JPL to build two “prototypes” for Ames and Langley was quickly hashed out.

By the time JPL started work on its “prototypes,” it was already becoming obvious that cooperation, not just competition, was going to be vital for the future of low-cost planetary exploration. And, as both Ames and Langley began to move from bending paper to bending metal for their spacecraft, that the success--or failure--of Gore’s attempt to bring down the cost of exploration was going to depend on their ability to choose the best time to engage in each.
 
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I wanted to bring up the idea of space suits that have a hatch in their backs, and remain outside the pressurized part of the spacecraft. I believe other people here following this thread know a lot more about this notion than I do, which did not prevent me from speculating at some probably undesirable length.:eek: But I did refrain from posting it!

*snipped*

That pretty well summarizes the pros of this notion that I've thought of; aside from danger of fouling by dust of course it seems a bit risky to trust that seal on five different hatches and five spacesuits again and again, and the suits still have to be curtained from outside threats while not being used. I can think of others too.

I like the idea of suit-locks, but as I understand the concept was considered a bit too immature ITTL for use on Artemis. I don't know too much about how far it's advanced IOTL, but I can imagine a nasty situation if you tried to back into a suit-lock only to find some dust (that bloody dust!) has worn away a seal or dinged a connection and you can't get a clean connection. :eek:
Personally, I like suitlocks too. Conceptually, it's not just great for the dust issue. It's also lighter than an airlock, minimizes losses of consumables when it's cycled, and it can be donned and doffed fast enough that something like Constellation's pressurized rover can be used and yet you don't have to spend three hours to stop, get out, and grab an interesting rock. That allows some of the really great flexibility of the open-top rovers like Apollo with the long-duration benefits of a pressurized mobile lab. However, there's the increased number of ports-to-vacuum and the risks associate with that, and it's a fairly radical shift from conventional suits--it'd need an entirely new suit design. Something like it might be tossed around for Artemis (the concept dates to '87 in OTL) but we just think it'd be a bit too immature at this point in the TL.

That makes sense. I just think back to Apollo when they only had one suit. So a IVA suit similar to the shuttle ACES suit? From my understanding on Apollo they conducted the re-entry in a shirt sleeve environment.
They will use an IVA suit on ascent from Earth in Apollo (in case of abort) and on landing, but the suits will stay in Apollo while the crew descends. The suits don't live long enough to sustain the crew to get back to the Apollo if an issue arises on ascent that for some reason, especially considering that the most likely case for a breach of the pressure hull is some kind of a catastrophic engine failure. Not only is that spectacularly unlikely, but it'd probably mean the ascent stage can't get back to the Apollo. The suits are also about 30 kg each, and for four astronauts, that's about another hundred kg that have to come down and then back up which can be lunar samples if the suits stay in the Apollo.

That Gore will give them less ammunition than Clinton does not mean (a) the House won't latch on to something to investigate (and perhaps even impeach--I think we often forget, nearly twenty years on, how much of it really was--openly--"revenge for Nixon"), or (b) the same general social climate and culture wars won't lead to a similar level of toxicity. I'd be very surprised if a there weren't "Gore Death Lists" the way there were Clinton Death Lists ("50 People the Clintons Murdered!")
Nor will the media climate be all that noticeably different; the press corps will have had the same 20-out-of-24-years to see a Republican president as normal, nor do I think their hatred of Gore will be butterflied (though perhaps a *bit* less than hatred of Clinton as the class issue won't be so severe.
Like you say, a massive GOP backlash against Gore is still apt to happen--part of why he has no more luck with healthcare or the like than Clinton did IOTL, and he still takes a beating in the midterms, just not quite as much, more mid-40s than mid-50s. Given the starting disparity, this makes the margin between the parties much narrower than OTL--only slightly more than single digits. On top of that, the House is seated right in the aftermath of the Plot, and it's many months or so before the fallout from that stops dominating the headlines and inducing a bit of "rally around the flag." Thus, the time frame for a massive pre-96 White House/Capitol Hill throwdown is largely taken up with other business. After '96, the GOP no longer have the House (though again the Dem majority is pretty minuscule), and only a tiny majority in the Senate. While writing about some kind of Gore scandal in such a scenario (I dunno, accusations of personal investments in green-tech companies benefiting from a major policy speech about "An Inconvenient Truth"?) could be really exciting if done by somebody more focused on politics in a TL more focused on that stuff, that's not what we're writing about and it's not what we're good at writing.

Personally, I'd read TTL of ID4 and Stargate, because they sound like they'd be awesome.
Tracking the influence of this much in the way of butterflies on the creation of a new property like Stargate or ID4, the effects of differences in the creative teams...it takes knowing a lot more about those properties and the individuals involved than either the Brainbin or myself do. Doing that research on top of the basic research for posts for our thread is a lot when he's got his own writing to manage would be a lot--I'm just glad he's willing to help us as much as he has.
 
Tracking the influence of this much in the way of butterflies on the creation of a new property like Stargate or ID4, the effects of differences in the creative teams...it takes knowing a lot more about those properties and the individuals involved than either the Brainbin or myself do. Doing that research on top of the basic research for posts for our thread is a lot when he's got his own writing to manage would be a lot--I'm just glad he's willing to help us as much as he has.
No joke, but given the through away comment about post length naming them, I can't help but wonder, since one is one of my favorite series and the other is a nice guilty pleasure, and of course he will post whatever he feels he needs to properly show the pop cultural shift involved given the TL.
 
Good morning everyone. This week we take a closer look at some of the planned asteroid and comet missions, starting with Japan's comet sample return mission.

japan_comet.png
 
Here's an American concept for a comet lander, carrying along JPL's clever little lander. (It wasn't named in the post, but I might suggest 'Nomad' ;))

pioneer.png
 
Lovely, lovely graphics. We're getting quite spoiled.

Minor nitpick. You've got a typo in the text: 'would hAlp to', emphasis added.

Ah, drat!! The GIMP developers really should include a spell-checker... Or I should learn to spell, one or the other :eek:

Incidentally, that Meteor image was a bit of late whimsy on my part, as it just so happened that I re-watched the film this weekend. As it was mentioned obliquely in the post, and figuring that ITTL the makers would 'upgrade' their Mars ship from a Skylab model to a Spacelab one - and finally since I had the Spacelab model and an asteroid model from a Blenderguru tutorial to hand, I figured I'd risk straying slightly into Brainbin's territory and knock up a quick screengrab.
 
Incidentally, that Meteor image was a bit of late whimsy on my part, as it just so happened that I re-watched the film this weekend. As it was mentioned obliquely in the post, and figuring that ITTL the makers would 'upgrade' their Mars ship from a Skylab model to a Spacelab one - and finally since I had the Spacelab model and an asteroid model from a Blenderguru tutorial to hand, I figured I'd risk straying slightly into Brainbin's territory and knock up a quick screengrab.
I was actually going to post to say how much I loved that screengrab! Is it wrong that I find matte lines strangely comforting? :p That's also a pretty impressive piece of rock they got to "play" the meteor - it definitely looks better than the standard cookie dough/potato variety you usually see in movies like this.
 
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