Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

Question so what is Germany version of the oppenheimer film in this tl like?

Second how do the ottomans and austria view Bosnia? Surely the ottomans must be want influence to protect the Bosniaks. Do the Austrians and ottomans cooperate on Bosnia?
 
In regards to austria first did franz Ferdinand son joesph son still commit suscide and also his wife being assassinated?
I assumed (lazily) that the fortunes of the Habsburg dynasty remain unchanged until about 1900, so the Mayerling suicide and the death of Sissi remain canon. There is no good reason for this, it just saved me work.

Second how does austria reform the United States of Greater Austria, or danubian federation route? If its the former is its acronym USA or USGA?
The name remains unchanged, but the effort to reform things at the internal level go fairly deep. The idea is for a federation of states under the umbrella of the Austrian emperor on the Austrian side and under the crown of St Stephen on the Hungarian side. Details - not going to do that level of reading anytime soon. I'm fairly certain it will involve a great deal of pretence and shibboleths.
in regards to the german upper house does anyone ever get annoyed very small principalities with little population get votes? Similar to how small us states have same amount of votes to big states?
Everyone all the time? The situation is actually very similar to that in the US: There is a degree of veneration for the constitution and its framer (Bismarck, in this case) that goes well beyond political reason, and more importantly, however ramshackle and patently unequal the system is, cvhanging it is going to runm into massive headwinds from everyone who has a vested interest in any aspect of it. That is, at this point, practically everyone.
It's also a situation that benefits different factions at various points. Much of the time, the small principalities bolster efforts to slow modernisation and carve out exceptions. However, they also serve to counterbalance centralising attemptsd by Prussia and can be leveraged in defense of civil liberties. Especially at the time of the Konservative Revolution, that was an important function. And sometimes, they can be united in opposing industrial interests to favour workers' rights or free trade. Nobody wants to risk touching that.


The thread cuts close to my bone, and my posts at times are triggered by externalities such as the recent France/Gujarat human trafficking event.
I must have missed that.

What does the name of the TL mean? It doesn't seem quite German and google translate couldn't recognize the language.

It means "The Promised Land" I thought. As in geloben to pledge.

Bingo! It's a reference to the status of Yiddish-speaking Jews in the German-dominated Mitteleuropa, a "Promised Land" to which many of them move and in which they thrive. It's not unknown in more inebriated moments for Wilhelm III to be toasted as the Messiah (though sober commentators cast him as a latter-day Cyrus).

Question so what is Germany version of the oppenheimer film in this tl like?
That is not going to be made. The atom bomb project is not viewed with any great degree misgivings, either at the time or for the decades after. By the time people begin to realise that you sort of could casually eradicate human civilisation, it is more how we feel about plastic - "Maybe it wasn't as smart an idea as we thought" rather than "I am become death".
You could argue that the development of true strategic bombing did greater damage to human civilisation than nuclear weaponry, but it isn't culturally cast in the same way. Hollywood never made movies about the B-29 project.
Second how do the ottomans and austria view Bosnia? Surely the ottomans must be want influence to protect the Bosniaks. Do the Austrians and ottomans cooperate on Bosnia?
They do, though the treaties ensure that Austria has the upper hand. The Ottomans view it as another piece of their Empire taken from them, less gallingly than others, with greater regard for the local Islamic traditions and their cultural bonds, but still. The Austrians see it as a colony by another name, a satellite state where they are obligated by treaty to take the sensitivities of the Porte into account in managing its internal affairs, but in all truly important regards - economic integration, military dispositions, infrastructure building - it's theirs.
Of course that changes over the twentieth century. Bosniak auxiliaries in 1906 are basically considered colonial troops. In 1944, they are poor allies. By the 1980s, they are fully integrated into the command structure of the German treaty system. Meanwhile, their government in 1900 is basically an assembly of elders, mayors and dignitaries called on to ratify the diktat of Vienna. By 1980, they have established institutions, elected representatives, and a civil service. They're a real country, though a dependent one.
 

kham_coc

Banned
That is not going to be made. The atom bomb project is not viewed with any great degree misgivings, either at the time or for the decades after. By the time people begin to realise that you sort of could casually eradicate human civilisation, it is more how we feel about plastic - "Maybe it wasn't as smart an idea as we thought" rather than "I am become death".
You could argue that the development of true strategic bombing did greater damage to human civilisation than nuclear weaponry, but it isn't culturally cast in the same way. Hollywood never made movies about the B-29 project.
well the projects are made by different countries - For the US; it was essentially a 'Win more button' and the lives it possibly saved, theoretical, Arguably the Bomb made the US less safe, not more, as now the Continental US was vulnerable in a way it wasn't before.
For Germany, the 'we would have won anyway' was theoretical, the lives saved much more real with the entire nation vulnerable to the Russians in a way even a ludicrously wanked Japan could ever have been, and it made Germany more safe, not less.
This necessarily means that the only way that movie gets made, it is as a documentary/biopic (which would be very boring i think).
Or at least that's my read of your post?
 
Bingo! It's a reference to the status of Yiddish-speaking Jews in the German-dominated Mitteleuropa, a "Promised Land" to which many of them move and in which they thrive. It's not unknown in more inebriated moments for Wilhelm III to be toasted as the Messiah (though sober commentators cast him as a latter-day Cyrus).
Does this also apply to actual Germany? I remember reading that there was a lot of discrimination from German-speaking german jews towards the Yiddish speaking "Ostjuden", and with far less antisemitism that might not have died out.

Also, what changed in areas like Poland or the Baltics to make them so welcoming towards Jews? They had their own homegrown antisemitism before the Nazis were even a thing, and I can't see Germany being interested enough to crack down on it.
 
well the projects are made by different countries - For the US; it was essentially a 'Win more button' and the lives it possibly saved, theoretical, Arguably the Bomb made the US less safe, not more, as now the Continental US was vulnerable in a way it wasn't before.
For Germany, the 'we would have won anyway' was theoretical, the lives saved much more real with the entire nation vulnerable to the Russians in a way even a ludicrously wanked Japan could ever have been, and it made Germany more safe, not less.
This necessarily means that the only way that movie gets made, it is as a documentary/biopic (which would be very boring i think).
Or at least that's my read of your post?

That is part of it. The atomic bomb provided Germany with a security that nothing else could, and it led to a meaningful era of relative peace. Another part of it is that the story of its development doesn't really lend itself to being told as a hero narrative. There is no one person who 'invented' it, and the one person the German media latched onto early (Einstein) wanted nothing to do with it and rejected the association. German war movies generally aren't as much one m,an shows as Hollywood ones anyway, though, so they could (and did) make "that movie" several times. It doesn't look like Oppenheimer, though. It looks like The Longest Day - multiple perspectives, long story arcs, and a positive ending.

Does this also apply to actual Germany? I remember reading that there was a lot of discrimination from German-speaking german jews towards the Yiddish speaking "Ostjuden", and with far less antisemitism that might not have died out.
Not really. Germany ITTL is a perfectly fine country for Jews to live. If you have citizenshjip, you have full civic rights, if not, sucks to be you, but you won't be treated worse than any Serb, Italian, or Pole, and better than the Togolese and Cameroonians. There's a good deal of antisemitism, some of it overtly political (the Christlich Soziale took a blow with the attack on Wilhelm, but they didn't disappear), some of it religious, most of it casually ingrained. It doesn't help that the stereotype of Jew established in Germany is the Ashkenasi refugee, poor people speaking bad German and trying to make a meager living by any business possible. A lot of Germans (a dwindling number over the century, but still a significant fraction by 2000) resent and distrust "these people".
That said, you can live as an Ashkenasi Jew in Germany and enjoy a better standard of living than you would have in Poland or Lithuania. The main difference is that unlike there, in Germany there is no societal slot for you to fit into. You are always a foreigner, and your choices are to integrate (against considerable resistance both from Christian German society and the established integrated Jewish community) or to continue living a marginal existence with your backyard shul and limited social circle. In Poland, you have opportunity, standing, and recognition as who you are.

Also, what changed in areas like Poland or the Baltics to make them so welcoming towards Jews? They had their own homegrown antisemitism before the Nazis were even a thing, and I can't see Germany being interested enough to crack down on it.
The story is long and complex, but basically the Jews have guns now. There are a lot of them, and the role they played in the revolution of 1905 and the organisation of the Polish military in the years after secured them a degree of influence. In the postwar ordering of Mitteleuropa, "Jewish" was a recognised ethnicity and treated as such in the complex sectarian constitutions of Poland and Lithuania.
Also, the Germans are interested in cracking down on antisemitism. The vicious anti-Jewish stance of the Russian government in the war made being a safe haven for the Jews a major propaganda point. Berlin cannot be seen to condone overt anti-Jewish violence or official propaganda. That doesn't mean they are going to push a broad societal campaign to eradicate it, but if the police in some backwoods district decide to look the other way while mobs burn down Jewish quarters, the German consul will take a close interest in the future careers of the local leadership. More importantly, though, there are local mechanisms of redress. If the police really decide to not do anything (or even join the pogroms), the local rabbi can call the Great Rabbinate in Lodz. Technically, Rabbi Landauer is just a spiritual leader, but he has a phone switchboard that connects him to government ministers, Sejm representatives, senior NSB officers, and the headquarters of IV Corps all of which are Jewish and remember him from back in the war.
Not least, of course, there is the fact that Poland maintains a strong, decentral reservist force after the war. They want guns in every veteran's home because the Russians could be back and because violence continues to be an issue and these people are trusted to defend the government. A lot of Jews, espewcially those who returned to the more rural areas, were in the National Army. Grabbing a pitchfork to go visit some Vodka-fuelled punishment on the Christkillers hits different if the response could easily be a couple of competently aimed Mauser bullets.
Between the concern over future careers, the central government's need to stay on Berlin's good side, and the memories of the war, hatred of Jews gradually simmers down to generic distrust and boring political jealousies ("Why do THEY get funding for their synagogue school's new gym when our school's toilets are leaky?") By the early 2000s, it's more like a national hangover.
 
A interesting aspect you haven’t written about but which is interesting in it own right.

What is happening with the Jews outside the German sphere of influence and Eastern Europe. What is happening to the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews to say nothing about Beta Israel and non-Ashkenazi Jews of the Russian Empire? A lot of these groups ended up in Israel in OTL, but without Israel what’s in store for them?

Also what happens to the Zionist? A lot of the trouble in them buying land in Palestine from the landlords and replace the tenant farmers had already begun at the time of the POD, and they made up a significant population at the Sea of Galilee and along the coast, and with rich Jews in Germany and Austria funding them and with a lot Russian Jews uprooted, I could easily see a slow continued influx of Jews to Palestine, nothing like OTL but I could easily see something like what we saw in OTL twenties. How do the Ottoman authorities deal with this and how do they avoid alienate Berlin and Vienna which likely have strong Zionistic lobbies?

Also it also bring another group up, what happens to the Templers (German pietist “Zionists”) in OTL they mostly grew irrelevant after WWI.
 
Also what happens to the Zionist? A lot of the trouble in them buying land in Palestine from the landlords and replace the tenant farmers had already begun at the time of the POD, and they made up a significant population at the Sea of Galilee and along the coast, and with rich Jews in Germany and Austria funding them and with a lot Russian Jews uprooted, I could easily see a slow continued influx of Jews to Palestine, nothing like OTL but I could easily see something like what we saw in OTL twenties. How do the Ottoman authorities deal with this and how do they avoid alienate Berlin and Vienna which likely have strong Zionistic lobbies?

I always thought that Carlton's choice of his timeline's title - which we are freshly reminded of! - is that a new Polish state emerges which fulfills a lot of emerging Ashkenazi Jewish aspirations for a secure and safe "homeland," and . . . that while this would not destroy the Zionist project, it seems like it has at least absorbed some of its appeal that it otherwise had for many Ashkenazi in the same years (1907-1939) of our own timeline.

At any rate, I expect (and Carlton can correct me on this, of course!) there will still be enough interest in migration to the, uh, Holy Land (i.,e., the relevant parts of the Vilayet of Beirut and the Mutasarrifyya/Sanjak of Jerusalem) that the real limitation is going to be on the willingness of local Ottoman authorities to accommodate it, than demand per se. Whether German and British (or indeed, perhaps even American) policymakers will exert any pressure on the former in this regard is . . . something I must leave for Carlton to address.
 
A interesting aspect you haven’t written about but which is interesting in it own right.

What is happening with the Jews outside the German sphere of influence and Eastern Europe. What is happening to the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews to say nothing about Beta Israel and non-Ashkenazi Jews of the Russian Empire? A lot of these groups ended up in Israel in OTL, but without Israel what’s in store for them?

Also what happens to the Zionist? A lot of the trouble in them buying land in Palestine from the landlords and replace the tenant farmers had already begun at the time of the POD, and they made up a significant population at the Sea of Galilee and along the coast, and with rich Jews in Germany and Austria funding them and with a lot Russian Jews uprooted, I could easily see a slow continued influx of Jews to Palestine, nothing like OTL but I could easily see something like what we saw in OTL twenties. How do the Ottoman authorities deal with this and how do they avoid alienate Berlin and Vienna which likely have strong Zionistic lobbies?
I expect there will be a growing Zionist presence in the Levant, but never large enough to form a breakaway state or expel local populations wholesale. They remain a grouzp among several, technically subsumed with the established Jewish community, though in fact dominating it and playing an outsize local role due to their wealth and connections. Without the massive shock of the Shoah and the Soviet conquest of Central Europe, though, there is no mass exodus of European Jews and as a consequence no mass expulsion from the Islamic world. The Jewish community remains compülex and multicultural, not increasingly concentrated.

Also it also bring another group up, what happens to the Templers (German pietist “Zionists”) in OTL they mostly grew irrelevant after WWI.

The German Jewish community (and more generally, that of Western Europe) is a big tent ITTL. They can accomodate almost infinite varietry, from the established Sephardi dynasties of the Hanseatic cities to the most reformist Tempel communities along with Chassidim fresh off the train. But it's going to get interesting and often heated.

I always thought that Carlton's choice of his timeline's title - which we are freshly reminded of! - is that a new Polish state emerges which fulfills a lot of emerging Ashkenazi Jewish aspirations for a secure and safe "homeland," and . . . that while this would not destroy the Zionist project, it seems like it has at least absorbed some of its appeal that it otherwise had for many Ashkenazi in the same years (1907-1939) of our own timeline.

At any rate, I expect (and Carlton can correct me on this, of course!) there will still be enough interest in migration to the, uh, Holy Land (i.,e., the relevant parts of the Vilayet of Beirut and the Mutasarrifyya/Sanjak of Jerusalem) that the real limitation is going to be on the willingness of local Ottoman authorities to accommodate it, than demand per se. Whether German and British (or indeed, perhaps even American) policymakers will exert any pressure on the former in this regard is . . . something I must leave for Carlton to address.
I don't envision much Western support for the Zionist project. A lot of its early publicity oxygen got captured by the success of the Jewsish National Army units, and much of the Western public sees Jews as 'native' to Eastern Europe due to the heavy press coverage. Even many early Zionists shifted their material support to the Great Rabbinate in Lodz. There is a Zionist movement and it has enough financial backing and influence to buy up land in Palestine, expel tenants, set up settlements, and wrangle consular jurisdiction for many of its settlers in the early years. But that is about it.

In the end, I think there will be a varied and large Jewish community in the region, with established local Jews resentful of newcomers, orthodox newcomers forming intensely religious communities in cities (many come late in life to die on the soil of Israel, effectively forming a retirement community when livable pensions become the norm in Mitteleuropa), disappointed Zionists in their planned-town, often fortified rural communes, and thriving urban communities of immigrants building businesses around all of this.

And outsiders will absolutely not get it.
 
I don't envision much Western support for the Zionist project. A lot of its early publicity oxygen got captured by the success of the Jewsish National Army units, and much of the Western public sees Jews as 'native' to Eastern Europe due to the heavy press coverage. Even many early Zionists shifted their material support to the Great Rabbinate in Lodz. There is a Zionist movement and it has enough financial backing and influence to buy up land in Palestine, expel tenants, set up settlements, and wrangle consular jurisdiction for many of its settlers in the early years. But that is about it.

In the end, I think there will be a varied and large Jewish community in the region, with established local Jews resentful of newcomers, orthodox newcomers forming intensely religious communities in cities (many come late in life to die on the soil of Israel, effectively forming a retirement community when livable pensions become the norm in Mitteleuropa), disappointed Zionists in their planned-town, often fortified rural communes, and thriving urban communities of immigrants building businesses around all of this.

And outsiders will absolutely not get it.

Plausible, given your timeline.
 
When decolonisation happens will the new Muslim nations look towards the ottomans as their leader? In general how much influence in the Muslim world does the ottomans now have?

Is german society like northern ireland? In which catholics and protestants live in seperate areas and parallel society and kinda hate each other?
 
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When decolonisation happens will the new Muslim nations look towards the ottomans as their leader? In general how much influence in the Muslim world does the ottomans now have?
What I would be interested in is what happens to the ottoman Middle East and especially Iraq. Holding on to Iraq after oil prices shoot up (supposing that even happens TTL) would become a very tempting proposition.
 
When decolonisation happens will the new Muslim nations look towards the ottomans as their leader? In general how much influence in the Muslim world does the ottomans now have?
Some will, but the relationship can be complicated. The Ottoman Empire plays a significant role in decolonisation which translates into a degree of influence with many newly independent countries, both Muslim and not. At the same time, there are faultlines within the Muslim world that they have to take account of.

Most importantly, obviously, is the Sunni/Shia divide. It does not play anywhere near as much of a role as it does IOTL, but with Iran playing up its role as spiritual home and protector of the Shia worldwide, there is a lingering sense of unease. The Porte is exceptionally careful to respect the minority rights of the Shia populations within its borders, so we aren't talking anything like modern-day shittery.

The second thing is national jealousies. The Egyptian government is toucvhy about Ottoman influence, and they are cultivating al-Azhar as the alternative centre of Sunni jurisprudence hoping to not just make themselves independent, but expand their influence into neighbouring countries that way. India, too, is quite wary and eager to depend on domestic infrastructures, though as a secular country with a large Muslim minority, Delhi is limited to moral suasion. Many patriotic middle-class Muslim families will neither respect Ottoman-trained clergy nor regard their fatwas as binding. That attitude expands into Malaysia and Ceylon, but to a lesser extent. In Indonesia and the former German colonies, Ottoman religious authorities are tarred with the collaborationist brush. They retain a traditional influence, but are widely distrusted by the new political leadership.

Then there is ideological confrontation. Many of the anticolonial activists are left-wing secularists while the traditional religious authorities often have a shameful histpry of collaboration. The new governments in Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are indebted to the Ottomans and on excellent terms with them, but they are wary of their religious establishment. Senegal has a similar situation, though here local Muslim organisations were more important in decolonisation. Those are people the Ottoman ulema have their own issues with, though.

On the whole, Ottoman influence is strongest in Central Asia, where they tried to set up an Empire after 1908 and retain a strong presence they can reactivate after 1946. They are also very influential in North and East Africa, less so in India and Southeast Asia. Iran and Egypt actively oppose their influence and try to develop their own.

Is german society like northern ireland? In which catholics and protestants live in seperate areas and parallel society and kinda hate each other?

Nowhere near that, though sectarianism remains a fact of life. Effectively, German society is divided three ways between Socialism, Conservative Nationalism, and political Catholicism. The Protestant churches have nowhere near the same level of organisation and impact. They align mostly conservative, but without any significant influence on the milieu.
Divides become less pronounced as time passes, and by mid-century, religious affiliation is no longer very important in Germany. In effect, while it is unthinkabler for the children of Prussian grand bourgeois or lesser nobility to marry a Social Democrat, the idea of marrying a Catholic (or indeed, the right kind of Jew) is maybe not ideal, but perfectly respectable under the right circumstances. By 2000, Germany is one of the least religious societies in Europe and churches are mostly considered folklore.

What I would be interested in is what happens to the ottoman Middle East and especially Iraq. Holding on to Iraq after oil prices shoot up (supposing that even happens TTL) would become a very tempting proposition.
The Ottomans do hold on to Iraq and Kuwait, and that is what effectively saves their bacon. In spite of its military efforts and reforms, the Empire continues to exist after 1900 largely because the Germans, Austrians and British prop it up. Rebuilding and recovering from the blows of the early century is a painful and halting process, and as late as 1950, the outlook for the Ottoman state was at best 50/50. Oil money changed everything. Now the Porte had a generous infrastructure budget and could deliver the benefits of modern statehood. The flag now meant not a distant gendarmerie station that you might avoid for fear of their violence and venality, but metalled roads and railways, schools, clinics, waterworks, electricity a functioning postal service. Army service is not something to avoid, but a path to advancement for rural youths. People get freakin old age pensions. Effectively, what happened in much of Europe well after the modern state is established there happens in the Ottoman realm at the same time as it is constituted.
 
By 2000, Germany is one of the least religious societies in Europe and churches are mostly considered folklore.

It is worth understanding that so much of what we understand as secularization Germany has deep roots, roots which were all well in place by the time of your 1888 point of departure.

That said, I do have to think that your statement might be understood in relative terms - in more than one respect. Relatively, Germany by end of the 20th century in your timeline is one of the least religious in Europe, but strikes me as likely to be at least somewhat, modestly, more religious Europe than one of our timeline. Germany in your timeline still suffered through two major wars, but societal self-confidence would not seem to be called into as deep a question when you actually WIN your two wars, or manage to avoid having large swaths of your urban landscape and civilian population converted into air pollution in the process thereof. Or, probably most importantly, don't have a genocidal national nightmare for a "Christian Germany" to live down. Political continuity has more of an impact on religious continuity than I think many of us like to admit . . . and Germany (esp. the eastern part) has a lot more of that than was the case in our 20th century history!

Worth thinking about, too, how having major countries in Europe (e.g., Britain, France) manage to avoid participating in these wars altogether and how interaction with those societies helps shapes Germany's (and Austria's). In our timeline, no one escaped.

The Ottomans do hold on to Iraq and Kuwait, and that is what effectively saves their bacon.

Now . . . in our timeline, the Ottomans never really had Kuwait in the first place. Under Sheikh Mubarak, they became a British protectorate (1896-99) after a century of basically independent existence....the 1913 Anglo-Ottoman convention recognized a sort of Ottoman sovereignty which seems to have been entirely theoretical before the war nuked it anyway. Granted, Mubarak comes along after your POD, but I suppose I am making a natural assumption that no butterflies would get down that way in that first decade.

That said, Iraq is much more hugely important, and keeping control of that obviously has an enormous set of impacts.
 
Socialism, Conservative Nationalism, and political Catholicism
How do minorities and German population of immigrants descendents fall under this? Like Jews, Muslims, Chinese, Africans so forth. Can I also ask do Jews also adopt the local state identity as well Like do prussian Jews exist and do they also love militarism like other prussians and look down upon south Germans.

attitude expands into Malaysia and Ceylon, but to a lesser extent. In Indonesia
Really Malaysia and Indonesia. I thought aceh would have strong ottoman support. Also Malaysia muslim monarchies I assumed would support ottomans. After all they have large Chinese population, so to keep Malaysia in safe go for ottoman support.
 
How does the economy of Germany and Europe/Western Europe more generally differ with the dramatically lessened damage from two World Wars?
 
It is worth understanding that so much of what we understand as secularization Germany has deep roots, roots which were all well in place by the time of your 1888 point of departure.

That said, I do have to think that your statement might be understood in relative terms - in more than one respect. Relatively, Germany by end of the 20th century in your timeline is one of the least religious in Europe, but strikes me as likely to be at least somewhat, modestly, more religious Europe than one of our timeline. Germany in your timeline still suffered through two major wars, but societal self-confidence would not seem to be called into as deep a question when you actually WIN your two wars, or manage to avoid having large swaths of your urban landscape and civilian population converted into air pollution in the process thereof. Or, probably most importantly, don't have a genocidal national nightmare for a "Christian Germany" to live down. Political continuity has more of an impact on religious continuity than I think many of us like to admit . . . and Germany (esp. the eastern part) has a lot more of that than was the case in our 20th century history!
It does apply in relative terms - nowehere is as secularised as IOTL - but I think Germany is actually on track for massive secularisation for reasons that are bound up with its structure and historical experience. You make an interesting point with East Germany, but I would caution against using church affiliation as a proxy for religiosity. In my experience, East Germany is more religious than the west. What I envision for ITTL Germany is a high level of church affiliation, mainly as a legacy of the concordats. Germany's churches are bound up tightly with the state. They have an outsize influence on the media, the education system, and public welfare provision. That makes them established pillars of the community, often beloved, equally often resented (hey, Social Democrats, you're unemployed, here's some tax-funded food for your kids, now say grace first like a good boy...). But above all it makes them bland. The churches will say what is expected of them and everybody knows it.
The Catholic church comes out better - they have more of a political identity - but even here, everybopdy knows that when the Konservative Revolution was on, the sermon would mention race, fatherland, and holy duty, when the war started, it was all about blessing the emperor's arms and noble sacrifice, and during the postwar decades, suddenly it was all charity, equality and brotherly love. You are not expected to have strong feelings towards such an organisation.
By the end of the century, leaving the church is socially acceptable, but it is considered a statement. The Social Democrats and affiliated organisations offer an automatic process if you want it - fill in a form, they do the rest - but since it effectively gets you out of paying church tax, the suspicion is you are doing it for financial reasons, which is considered bad form among the bourgeois. So most Germans still are in the church, and the majority of the people attend regularly - both at Easter and Christmas.
Germany has a strong tradition of personal pietism and invented the idea of "Kulturprotestantismus". It also developed a strong Romantic bent of individual divine experience mediated through art. Both are incredibly popular and accessible, and they carry a kind of soicial cachet they don't in other areas. In fact, reading Hölderlin and meditating on the nature of the divine holon is, if anything, more respectable that joining hoi polloi in the pews on a cold Sunday morning where a civil servant reads out the regulation sermon. And of course, if you have any intellectual aspirations, you are reading historical criticism. Very few people outside the clergy read the classics of new Protestant theology, but everybody reads about Biblical archeology and the background of Scripture, even in school Religionsunterricht. Most will come away with the impression that it's "all invented to make people feel better".
Germany ITTL is a very Christian country, but it hasn't a religious bone in its body. Babies are baptised, teenagers take first communion, couples are married in church, the dying are comforted by clergy and buried with the comforting words of the pastor, but people take their moral guidance, their beliefs about the world, their politics and their spiritual experiences from elsewhere. The country still has Christian mystics, but they are mostly relegated to psychatric wards.
Worth thinking about, too, how having major countries in Europe (e.g., Britain, France) manage to avoid participating in these wars altogether and how interaction with those societies helps shapes Germany's (and Austria's). In our timeline, no one escaped.
I see the main effect being that the countries spared the impact remain more traditionalist, more entrenched in their ways, and doing with far less government intervention in their lives and structures. You still have village communities made up exclusively of families living in the same cottages for four or five generations, landlords who own entire districts, and old boys' clubs where regional policy is made over port and cigars, or wine and hors d'oeuvres. The welfare state is far less pronounced, taxes are lower, and Manchester liberalism is a respectable political view. Obviously, you cannot escape the twentieth century, but it runs much less deep here.
Now . . . in our timeline, the Ottomans never really had Kuwait in the first place. Under Sheikh Mubarak, they became a British protectorate (1896-99) after a century of basically independent existence....the 1913 Anglo-Ottoman convention recognized a sort of Ottoman sovereignty which seems to have been entirely theoretical before the war nuked it anyway. Granted, Mubarak comes along after your POD, but I suppose I am making a natural assumption that no butterflies would get down that way in that first decade.

That said, Iraq is much more hugely important, and keeping control of that obviously has an enormous set of impacts.
Good point - I was going by my 1912 atlas, but obviously it wasn't really Ottoman any more. Unsurprising. Iraq should be enough, though.


How do minorities and German population of immigrants descendents fall under this? Like Jews, Muslims, Chinese, Africans so forth. Can I also ask do Jews also adopt the local state identity as well Like do prussian Jews exist and do they also love militarism like other prussians and look down upon south Germans.
Prussian Jews absolutely do exist. There is an established, large, influential and wealthy community of bourgeois Jewish families who speak German, think German, and share all the traits of their Christian fellows. As barriers to advancement are removed, they become nobility, officers, government officials and civil servants in exactly the same way all other Prussian haut bourgeois do. They are proud of their military service, excel at educational attainment, proudly display their medals and degrees, and they are just as irreligious, Romantic, and arrogant as everybody else in their poisition. They look down on South Germans the same way they look down on (shudder) Ostjuden. I mean, yes, fellow Jews, but really, learn proper German and get a decent haircut, this is a civilised country!
Incidentally, when Wilhelm III (or generally, the German state) wants to speak to "the Jews", those are the people it speaks to. It explains a lot about the communication issues they are having.
Really Malaysia and Indonesia. I thought aceh would have strong ottoman support. Also Malaysia muslim monarchies I assumed would support ottomans. After all they have large Chinese population, so to keep Malaysia in safe go for ottoman support.
It's not that the Ottomans would not want to support the anticolonial movements in Malaysia, it is that Malaysia's post-colonial government is too concerned over foreign influence of any kind to allow much of it. They see the Ottomans and the Chinese as equally welcome and equally problematic, try to maintain good relations with both, but prevent either from being too powerful. So they will use Ottoman influence to counterbalance Chinese, then Chinese to counterbalanbce Ottoman, then Australian and Indian to counter them both...
Indonesia has sour memories - the Netherlands are part of Germany's alliance system, so the Ottoman government here is not so much feared for providing support with string attached as it is resented for not providing it.
How does the economy of Germany and Europe/Western Europe more generally differ with the dramatically lessened damage from two World Wars?

Think of Switzerland. Much of this Europe is a lot more cash-rich, also militarily more relatively powerful, but less unitary, less centralised and more traditional. It is thus more focused on the colonies and global competition because a European war would be economically insane, having seen what it did to Germany. The result is several decades of gold-standard based, trade-fuelled low-tax prosperity, but also a halting and patchy development interrupted by intractable crises that produces resentment and anger and hobbles many nascent industries. That is why Germany, despite fighting two modern wars, can catch up with living standards in the second half of the century. Britain and France will spend the 1950s and 1960s building social and material infrastructure that Germany already has.
 
Really Malaysia and Indonesia. I thought aceh would have strong ottoman support. Also Malaysia muslim monarchies I assumed would support ottomans. After all they have large Chinese population, so to keep Malaysia in safe go for ottoman support.
Indonesia IOTL founders are very concerned with separatist movements and spend the entire 1950s-1960s, even now in the present day in Papua New Guinea, stomping out independence movements. With extreme prejuice/warcrimes. I don’t see why in this alternate timeline Indonesia will give a shit about what Istanbul wants when the Turks can’t even get their shit together. Aceh for all intents and purposes in Jakarta eye, is an Indonesian province.

Malaysia is… complicated. The various sultans technically held power but it’s mostly ceremonial now with even the powerful Johor sultan being cowed by KL decades ago. In this alternate timeline the same thing will played out with the sultans , especially Johor trying to preserve their power while the political elites of the country wrestle away what little political control the monarchy have behind the scene
 
Considering the focus that France ITL has on Northern Africa and Western Africa, and considering their animosity and fear of a German led Mittleeuropa, I think that the Algeria question is going to be even more awful and messy than OTL. Algeria will see more immigration from France proper, and Italy who they ally with, both of which didn't lose any citizens to WWI or WWII. The Sahara and Atlas mountains provide raw materials, and especially fossil fuels, which they will consider strategically vital. This timeline also doesn't have the same taboo of eugenics and some of the really nasty stuff that WWII basically ended.

I seriously envision France wanting to sterilise those with "criminal genes", and if those criminals happen to be terrorists demanding independence, that's just a happy coincidence.
 
In my experience, East Germany is more religious than the west.

Interesting observation.

I see the main effect being that the countries spared the impact remain more traditionalist, more entrenched in their ways, and doing with far less government intervention in their lives and structures. You still have village communities made up exclusively of families living in the same cottages for four or five generations, landlords who own entire districts, and old boys' clubs where regional policy is made over port and cigars, or wine and hors d'oeuvres. The welfare state is far less pronounced, taxes are lower, and Manchester liberalism is a respectable political view. Obviously, you cannot escape the twentieth century, but it runs much less deep here.

Yes....this makes sense, given your timeline.

(Re: Manchester Liberalism. This is actually all Thatcherism really was; just updated for a late Cold War, post-imperial setting. In the late 20th century of your timeline, it will be experienced somewhat differently, of course.)
 
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