Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

got a question saw on reddit something about a german princess family using the rifht to be forgotten due to her saying something about hating muslims or something. What are the censorship laws/ lese-majeste laws. Do they get used to stop coverage when royals do stupid or bad things.

It's complicated, but generally the answer is 'jein'.

Majestätsbeleidigung is on the books, along with Gotteslästerung and Staatsfeindliche Handlungen. It was used widely, some would say indisciminately, in the 20s and 30s, a sour memory for German jurists. But by the 2000s, the law is circumscribed heavily. Firstly, the penalties were never all that stiff. Up to five years of Festungshaft was theoretical,in reality you would be spending a few months in comfortable impriosonment and the publicity was worthwhile (Festungshaft was 'nicht ehrenrührig', you did not come out a felon, and the Reich was civilised about it). Secondly, the law requires the victim (the sovereign or relative or their guardinan) to authorise prsecution. It is not a good idea to do that too often, not least because you can actually lose those cases. And thirdly, because under German law, truth is an absolute defense in libel cases and over time, more than one sovereign got burned prosecuting the libel of a minor relative that way.

Of course there are real limits to what the press gets to say even in modern-day Germany. there are libel laws, privacy laws (though these are much weakth than IOTL without the experience of Gestapo and Stasi), and a myriad of ways that the powers that be can make your life uncomfortable if you put the wrong stuff into print. But it's not really much different from the way the press works in modern-day France or Germany. and the strong, but highly circumscribed libel laws also have the side effect of curbing the worst excesses of conspiracy theory. There is no equivalent of Whitewatergate or Birtherism ITTL. Any recognised, licensed media outlet peddling that would be sued out of existence in short order.

Also in modern times does bavaria, Saxony still have their own embassies and armies?

Technically yes. In fact the armies are entirely integrated into the unified military structure. All regiments are still formally affiliated with one or more member states, but the only ones still under a command outside the Great General Staff are the guards units. These remain under the direct command of the sovereign and range in numbers from corps strength (Prussian and Bavarian lifeguards) to thirty (Hamburg's Reitendiener). In wartime, they are put under unified command via a process analogous to the federalisation of National Guard units. And of course the navy and air force are completely centralised under the emperor.

All member states maintain embassies and consulates abroad to further their own interests, but the whole thing is basically a patchwork of overlapping cooperative agreements that it might as well be called 'German'. Basically, any consulate of a member state can do administrative work pertaining to any other. They have agreements to assist each other's citizens. that is why, for example, Prussia has no diplomatic presence anywhere in Oceania. Hamburg has that covered. Generally speaking, Prussia's diplomatic service is the most important one (and the one affiliated with the foreign intelligence service), so in most cases the Prussian embassy also 'handles' the German ambassador. Only Bavaria and Saxony bother to have any embassies for reasons other than traditional (closing an embassy would be a needless snub to a foreign power, and ambassadorships make nice sinecures), but many states have consulates. These mostly serve economic purposes. Bavaria, for example, has a consulate in Warsaw whose job is to make sure that Bavarian companies don't get left out of lucrative deals. That is how these things get done.
 
A comparison to OTL's Mephisto case may be of interest.

Ofc course the whole Mephisto case would be impossible ITTL. There are no constitutional rights in the Reich. I'm sort of tempted to make the system wrap itself around a completely different, Hobbesian legal philosophy where the purpose of the state is not to defend but to curtail freedom and the purpose of the law is to define how far it can go in the process. Because in this setting, 'natural liberty' would mean the ability to do whatever you damned well please and that is no basis for a society.

So in this scenario - and I'm not sure I'm running with it, but it sounds interesting - the case would be a different one. The question is not whether government has the right to curtail artistic freedom. OF COURSE it does, that is its purpose. Artistic freedom is not even actionable, "kein einklagbares Rechtsgut". The question is whether, on balance in a specific case and in view of general principle (because everything in German law looks to Kant), a ban or restriction of artistic freedom is indicated. Personal honour is a Rechtsgut, but so is freedom of expression. This would be decided by a Verwaltungsgericht.
 
where were the minority parties on the political spectrum in germany? Obviously they supported their minority interest but were they liberal or socialist in nature.
 
where were the minority parties on the political spectrum in germany? Obviously they supported their minority interest but were they liberal or socialist in nature.

Technically, they were not 'political' in that way, and many represented big-tent coalitions with little more than ethnic loyalty to hold them together (of course, you can say much the same about nation states and they worked out okay at the time). In practice, despite having significant proportions of conservatives in their ranks, they trended liberal because conservative politicians pretty consistently opposed their endeavours.
 
Technically, they were not 'political' in that way, and many represented big-tent coalitions with little more than ethnic loyalty to hold them together (of course, you can say much the same about nation states and they worked out okay at the time). In practice, despite having significant proportions of conservatives in their ranks, they trended liberal because conservative politicians pretty consistently opposed their endeavours.

Yes if we look historical if minority parties tend to liberal centrist in politics, we see it both in Swedish People Party (Finland), Schleswig Party (Denmark) and South Schleswig Voter Association (Germany). Through sometimes if a minority is in majority in a region, we see split in the minority vote in either ideological minority parties or the national party have minority branches. Especially Religious and Socialist parties tend to have minority branches. I could see Zentrum and SPD having Polish branches. While the only other example could be SPD branch among the Danish minority.

This also bring up another issue, have the Alsacians begun to assimilate into a general German identity?
 
This also bring up another issue, have the Alsacians begun to assimilate into a general German identity?

The majority of them, yes. Once the oddity of 'Reichland' ends, the assimilation process goes relatively smoothly for the majority of German-speaking Alsatians .The French-speaking minority is finding it harder, but between emigration (France is welcoming) and an increasingly conciliatory stance by the Reich (made possible also by the application of the law being in the hands of Alsace-Lorraine, not Berlin), they are less strident and more accepting.
 
The Heavy Metal Concert Agency, Berlin Dahlem, 30 August 1938 [post canon]
Professor !

Dr. ■ ■ ■ ■

What happened at Breslau ?

Nebbich.

Herr Schmitt pronounced „Die spezifisch politische Unterscheidung, auf welche sich die politischen Handlungen und Motive zurückführen lassen, ist die Unterscheidung von Freund und Feind“ yet students began shouting "Kant! Kant! Kant! To Peace Perpetual!" and pelted him with their Hollerith cards.

Youth knows no virtue.

Will you accelerate the programme ?

I shall not.
 
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What does the the german navy look like especially the battleships ans aircraft carriers will something akin to the h class battleships exist?
 
What does the the german navy look like especially the battleships ans aircraft carriers will something akin to the h class battleships exist?

Likely not. Those are a vanity project, and this Wilhelmine Germany doesn't do vanity.

Germany comes out of the war economically crippled, and despite the fact that everybody is getting in on the naval arms race thing, they don't lay down their first new Cuniberti-type ship (What OTL knows as a 'Dreadnought') in 1913. I envision the Württemberg class to look a lot like IOTL's Bayern class. only since the names Bayers, Sachsen and Baden are already taken (ITTL's last pre-Dreads) it won't be a Kingdom class. Money's tight, each successive build incorporates improvements and the resulting series is unequal, but stays in service until the second war, forming the backbone of the fleet.

After that, Germany doesn't commission new battleships. The ships of the Württemberg not-quite-class are perfectly servicable and can be modified. They carry very heavy armaments (Krupp is world leader in that, which means the Germans can make better 38cm guns than even the British) and their poor range and mediocre speed don't matter much. German battleships are designed on the turtle principle - very strong armour, short legs, hard bite.

The next major build doesn't happen until the mid-1920s, when relations with Britain cool. Germany lays down armoured cruisers for convoy defense in order to hold its own in a possible war with France. The economic crisis intervenes and only four of a planned twelve are finished. These are similar to the heavy cruiser Deutschland in that they push the design to its limits, but the focus is still on range and speed. Not quite the performance of the Graf Spee, but that is broadly the intent.

After Russia comes out of its arms control regime, it lays down four major builds - the Yaroslav class battleships for the Baltic, the Ilya Muromez class for the Black sea, the Poltava-class battlecruisers for the Pacific and the Pallada-class heavy cruisers for the Baltic and Northern fleets. Germany responds, but not by trying to match the design. Instead, they try to counter it. The Russian battleships do not carry the heaviest possible guns, and they are short-legged, designed for confined seas. The German response is the 'dwarf battleship', something like IOTL's Sverige class on steroids. The idea is that these ships, reinforced by the still adequate Württembergs and coordinated closely with naval air and support vessels, can counter the Russian fleet (the war will prove them more than adequate).

The Russian cruiser development gives the Germans greater headaches, and in the end the decision not to build new battleships is mainly because cruisers are perceived as more important. Germany lays down a series of heavy cruisers - the Mackensen class, broadly similar to the projected P-class heavy cruiser - that are nominally supposed to match the Poltava class. The finished vessels turn out far superior and worry even the British. However, none of these programmes - Russian or German - are anywhere near finished by the time the war breaks out. Many of the vessels are still in shakedown or launching, and the focus on both sides quickly turns to building smaller units.

Germany's aircraft carriers are very much a secondary consideration. The first build - Leuthen, Leipizig and Sedan - is launched in 1928-30. They are smaller than contemporary French, British and US vessels and carry subpar planes. Their purpose is convoy protection, and they are meant much more as reconnaissance platforms with the capablility to go after light cruisers and submersibles than as captal ships. The second build comes in response to the Russian buildup in the late 30s, and these, too, are escort carriers meant for convoy and fleet protection. The German navy never manages to put their best planes on carriers - dersigned for land-based operations, they are too big - and the navalised versions of German fighters are inferior to British and French fighter-bombers. But carrier operations don't play much of a role in the second war. The whole naval side of it is very one-sided.
 
Gotta say, as ship classes go, "Cuniberti" doesn't quite conjure up the same mental image as "Dreadnought".

I mean really, imagine the phrase "Space Cuniberti"


Relatedly, since WWI ITTL doesn't discredit the concept of Empires the same way OTL did, wonder if the space opera genre, if/when it shows up, would have an overall more favorable attitude to Imperium of Man centric settings vs OTL settings that are more likely to emphasize scrappy Rebels.
 
Germany's aircraft carriers are very much a secondary consideration. The first build - Leuthen, Leipizig and Sedan - is launched in 1928-30. They are smaller than contemporary French, British and US vessels and carry subpar planes. Their purpose is convoy protection, and they are meant much more as reconnaissance platforms with the capablility to go after light cruisers and submersibles than as captal ships. The second build comes in response to the Russian buildup in the late 30s, and these, too, are escort carriers meant for convoy and fleet protection. The German navy never manages to put their best planes on carriers - dersigned for land-based operations, they are too big - and the navalised versions of German fighters are inferior to British and French fighter-bombers. But carrier operations don't play much of a role in the second war. The whole naval side of it is very one-sided.

Wouldnt naming a ship Sedan unecesserily anger the french? I mean if thats the goal its OK but otherwise there are a bunch of other - less touchy - military victories they could have chosen. Maybe even battle from the last russian war though that runs in to the same problem as Sedan just with the russians.
 
Wouldn't naming a ship Sedan unnecessarily anger the French?

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Panzerschiff A.jpg
.​
"Sedan to Leipzig is but a Third to One."
 
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Gotta say, as ship classes go, "Cuniberti" doesn't quite conjure up the same mental image as "Dreadnought".

I mean really, imagine the phrase "Space Cuniberti"


Relatedly, since WWI ITTL doesn't discredit the concept of Empires the same way OTL did, wonder if the space opera genre, if/when it shows up, would have an overall more favorable attitude to Imperium of Man centric settings vs OTL settings that are more likely to emphasize scrappy Rebels.

Well, if you look at some sci-fi of the pulp era, it doesn't get much more racist and imperialist than that. And yes, a good deal of sci-fi ITTL will glorify the benevolent rule of humanity over primitive alien civilisations.
 
Wouldnt naming a ship Sedan unecesserily anger the french? I mean if thats the goal its OK but otherwise there are a bunch of other - less touchy - military victories they could have chosen. Maybe even battle from the last russian war though that runs in to the same problem as Sedan just with the russians.

Not the point as such, but certainly not something Berlin has issues with at that point. If anything, Leuthen was more controversial. After all, the Austrians are allies now.
 
One of the early divergences in TTL was the British acquisition of the Katanga and the construction of the Cape-Cairo railway. So instead of SWA --semi-precious stone in the German Crown-- Southern Rhodesia might become the Fifth Province of the Union of South Africa.
I would sleep much sounder at night if I knew that Walvis Bay and the Offshore Islands had been attached to Namibia -- any chance of that ?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Well, if you look at some sci-fi of the pulp era, it doesn't get much more racist and imperialist than that. And yes, a good deal of sci-fi ITTL will glorify the benevolent rule of humanity over primitive alien civilisations.

So, no true change.
 

NotBigBrother

Monthly Donor
Well, if you look at some sci-fi of the pulp era, it doesn't get much more racist and imperialist than that. And yes, a good deal of sci-fi ITTL will glorify the benevolent rule of humanity over primitive alien civilisations.
And there is HG Wells and "The War of The Worlds".
 
And there is HG Wells and "The War of The Worlds".
Wonder what the german version of it would it be? H.G. Wells made clear points about imperialism and colonialism and british paranoia. Then the americans film in 1950s was also amazing. Whats would the themes of german one be prussian militarism, and its failure to stop the martians?
 
Wonder what the german version of it would it be? H.G. Wells made clear points about imperialism and colonialism and british paranoia. Then the americans film in 1950s was also amazing. Whats would the themes of german one be prussian militarism, and its failure to stop the martians?
Maybe something about the importance of heart, as opposed to unstoppable industrialization taking away independence and what makes us human? Your idea makes sense though.
 
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