England retain Calais

[VVD0D95]

Now, not sure exactly how it might happen, but say that England manage to hold onto Calais post 1558, what might the consequences of this be?

 

[Mikestone8]

Now, not sure exactly how it might happen, but say that England manage to hold onto Calais post 1558, what might the consequences of this be?

An earlier Channel Tunnel? It would have far more appeal in Britain if both ends were in British hands.

 

[Avrorrange]

An earlier Channel Tunnel? It would have far more appeal in Britain if both ends were in British hands.

Basically ASB?

 

[VVD0D95]

Aha interesting, could England, or Great Britain hold Calais until the present day, or would it always remain contested territory, necessitating it being sold off?

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

Any time England gets involved in a war on the European continent, there is a good chance whichever continental power they are fighting will take Calais. The first time this would happen would be Philip II and Parma taking it in the 1580s.

Its not out of the way and easy to fortify like Gibraltar.

So the English pretty much lose Calais in any war they have to fight against the leading continental power. The question is whether they ask for and get it back in the resulting peace treaty. I think after this happens a few times they stop asking for the place back.

 

[VVD0D95]

Any time England gets involved in a war on the European continent, there is a good chance whichever continental power they are fighting will take Calais. The first time this would happen would be Philip II and Parma taking it in the 1580s.

Its not out of the way and easy to fortify like Gibraltar.

So the English pretty much lose Calais in any war they have to fight against the leading continental power. The question is whether they ask for and get it back in the resulting peace treaty. I think after this happens a few times they stop asking for the place back.

Okay, so essentially, any hopes of retaining some sort of French possession died off in the preceding century

 

[Draeger]

Needs a much earlier POD by which England holds onto Normandy as well. Basically needing more continental holdings to make holding onto them more of a strong incentive for the otherwise distant and internally-occupied English.

 

[VVD0D95]

Needs a much earlier POD by which England holds onto Normandy as well. Basically needing more continental holdings to make holding onto them more of a strong incentive for the otherwise distant and internally-occupied English.

Okay, what might be a realistic POD to see them hold onto more continental possessions?

 

[Musadutoe]

Okay, what might be a realistic POD to see them hold onto more continental possessions?

Do not see it happening without butterflying away the majority of what defined Britain and its pursuit of wealth and power through it ever expanding colonial empire throughout the world.

 

[VVD0D95]

Do not see it happening without butterflying away the majority of what defined Britain and its pursuit of wealth and power through it ever expanding colonial empire throughout the world.

Okay, so unless they manage to either win the 100yw or manage to hold Aquitaine or some such, they'd rather focus on exploring the new world? Makes sense.

 

[Tyr]

It is going to be lost at some point.
The interesting part comes if it is lost to Spain or the Netherlands rather than France.
It is afterall a naturally Dutch place.

 

[VVD0D95]

It is going to be lost at some point.
The interesting part comes if it is lost to Spain or the Netherlands rather than France.
It is afterall a naturally Dutch place.

Hmm now that would be interesting, if it is retained by the Spanish under the treaty with the English, that would be very interesting.

 

[funnyhat]

It is going to be lost at some point.
The interesting part comes if it is lost to Spain or the Netherlands rather than France.
It is afterall a naturally Dutch place.

Was it? Dunkirk was historically Dutch-speaking, but I thought Calais always spoke French or a similar dialect.

 

[English Nationalist]

Today a French dialect is spoken but originally and at the time of a required pod, the area spoken a variant of what would become West Flemish. I think an interesting possibility if Normandy is retained the Frankish/Dutch language spreads into Normandy but like the Scots language is seen by most as nothing more then a English dialect. This could change the perspectives of a number of people I have met over the years in relation to the Norman Conquest.

I'm starting to think if the Spanish comes involved in this timeline and holds the Netherlands more or less the same as otl, perhaps the Dutch will see themselves as continental English and fight to join Calais/Normandy. Just a thought but I would certainly love to a timeline develop from this forum. Thanks VVD0D95 for starting the forum.

 

[VVD0D95]

Today a French dialect is spoken but originally and at the time of a required pod, the area spoken a variant of what would become West Flemish. I think an interesting possibility if Normandy is retained the Frankish/Dutch language spreads into Normandy but like the Scots language is seen by most as nothing more then a English dialect. This could change the perspectives of a number of people I have met over the years in relation to the Norman Conquest.

I'm starting to think if the Spanish comes involved in this timeline and holds the Netherlands more or less the same as otl, perhaps the Dutch will see themselves as continental English and fight to join Calais/Normandy. Just a thought but I would certainly love to a timeline develop from this forum. Thanks VVD0D95 for starting the forum.

Hey no worries. How might they retain Normandy?

 

[English Nationalist]

I'm thinking something along the lines of Henry V dose not contract Dysentery during his campaign of which allows him somehow to live a long and productive reign and England wining the Seige of Orleans leaving the French once again very demoralised. A few combat situations later the French sue for peace or are forced to, this ends the 2nd Lancastrian Phase as an English victory. Skip forward a century or two, the northern regions close to the isles are increasingly centralised towards Westminster through a number of reasons such as landownership and trade. Somehow England maintains an island mentality through til Industrialisation despite becoming Kings of France as well.

During this period the Kingdom of Scotland is left vulnerable and over the generations becomes further and further more like a slave of Westminster. At some point due to whatever reasons, a Union of the crowns occurs between England and France with Scotland becoming apart of England and later on become seen as nothing more the a region of England much like one may view Brittany.

Come the Reformation, the still ruling Lancasters for some reason convert to say Calvinism of which spreads like the plague throughout all the held territories. This occurs much faster in the coastal north and so because of such reasons as formation of regions to improve governance, the region is cemented in English hands with the Williamite (otl Dutch) dialects of English becoming the language of the new Calvinist tradition in the region. While the remainder of France converts slower and maintains a strong Catholic tradition to later become the Ireland of the continent.

The United Kingdom of England and France becomes a great colonial power of which dominates the world and by the 20th Century has more then its fair place in the sun. Today Greater English culture is far more conservative linguistically due to the ultra-protestant patriotism created from the Reformation. West Germanic dialects form a sprachbund from Dublin to Berlin.

That is my mildly fantastical view on how such is possible, now I just need Kynan to create a genealogical chart for some 600 years of Lancastrian children.

Just a side note with the Lancastrian continuation being tied with Calais and that. Would their dynasty be referred to as the Lancastrian dynasty today or would they use Plantagenet?

 

[funnyhat]

Today a French dialect is spoken but originally and at the time of a required pod, the area spoken a variant of what would become West Flemish. I think an interesting possibility if Normandy is retained the Frankish/Dutch language spreads into Normandy but like the Scots language is seen by most as nothing more then a English dialect. This could change the perspectives of a number of people I have met over the years in relation to the Norman Conquest.

I stand corrected on Calais. I don't think it's very plausible that a Germanic language would spread over to Normandy, though. The historical trend was for the Germanic languages to retreat northward. Paris was the center of power and its language gradually prevailed. I don't think a Plantagenet victory would necessarily change that.

 

[English Nationalist]

If French was able to penetrate all the way to Wallonia an area that was very Germanic, the reverse can just as easily happen. Look at say Arabic for another example, sure it is a bit more of a stretch but if a religious element is able to be introduced there is no reason why the same could occur.

 

[VVD0D95]

I'm thinking something along the lines of Henry V dose not contract Dysentery during his campaign of which allows him somehow to live a long and productive reign and England wining the Seige of Orleans leaving the French once again very demoralised. A few combat situations later the French sue for peace or are forced to, this ends the 2nd Lancastrian Phase as an English victory. Skip forward a century or two, the northern regions close to the isles are increasingly centralised towards Westminster through a number of reasons such as landownership and trade. Somehow England maintains an island mentality through til Industrialisation despite becoming Kings of France as well.

During this period the Kingdom of Scotland is left vulnerable and over the generations becomes further and further more like a slave of Westminster. At some point due to whatever reasons, a Union of the crowns occurs between England and France with Scotland becoming apart of England and later on become seen as nothing more the a region of England much like one may view Brittany.

Come the Reformation, the still ruling Lancasters for some reason convert to say Calvinism of which spreads like the plague throughout all the held territories. This occurs much faster in the coastal north and so because of such reasons as formation of regions to improve governance, the region is cemented in English hands with the Williamite (otl Dutch) dialects of English becoming the language of the new Calvinist tradition in the region. While the remainder of France converts slower and maintains a strong Catholic tradition to later become the Ireland of the continent.

The United Kingdom of England and France becomes a great colonial power of which dominates the world and by the 20th Century has more then its fair place in the sun. Today Greater English culture is far more conservative linguistically due to the ultra-protestant patriotism created from the Reformation. West Germanic dialects form a sprachbund from Dublin to Berlin.

That is my mildly fantastical view on how such is possible, now I just need Kynan to create a genealogical chart for some 600 years of Lancastrian children.

Just a side note with the Lancastrian continuation being tied with Calais and that. Would their dynasty be referred to as the Lancastrian dynasty today or would they use Plantagenet?

How very nationalistic of you Hmm if Henry V survives and becomes King of France, his attention is going to be seriously divided between the two, which could lead to alienation amongst his people, and of course depending on how well he deals with French resistance as well, and how he deals with raising his son. But anyway assuming this happens, well, for a union of Scotland and England, one need only ensure that a daughter is born to either James III or James IV, and have that daughter be the heir, or go otl route ala Mary Queen of Scots.

Regarding what they'd be called, I think they'd still see themselves as the House of Plantagenet but historians might refer to them as House of Lancaster.

A rough tree of the mainline of Kings:

Henry V of England II of France reigned 1413-1458

Henry VI of England and III of France reigned 1458-1478

Edward IV of England and I of France reigned 1478-1508

Henry VII of England and IV of France reigned 1508-1538

And so and and so forth

Coincidentally, this also means no War of the Roses, meaning a more stabler England.

 

[English Nationalist]

So we have not just Calais but all of ttl Francland. "Coincidentally, this also means no War of the Roses, meaning a more stabler England. "

So basically job done, let's hit the pub