Empires that never were

[holycookie]

I defo think the Moroccans could take the Azores and the forts around western Africa which aren't the most important but still substantial.

Maybe but morocco would really have to reform its navy from a coastal one to a sea one. To be honest, the best way to have an Islamic colonization of part of the new world would be through al andalus. Historically when Andalus was unified with the Umayyad it was the most scientifically "liberal" nation in the Islamic world. In the long term probably an andalus will have a more different sleep than the rest of the islamic world, if this will create a new sect or something different i do not know

Tbf I could see a different Ming dynasty break up have the jin/qing hold the northern Chinese plain while the south goes off by itself (with xichuan being its own thing for a bit) and things would already be very interesting. An SEA that has purposeful Chinese immigration could become majority Chinese I think. Same with any other nation around sea doing it really.

basically having 2 chinas separated by centuries?

Another thing that I think that isn't often thought of is other German states forming the nucleus of the HRE. I think the area that is the Netherlands stretching to the Rhinelands would work at least.

For that, the Dutch have to be able to face the French and win.

 

[Quinkana]

Maybe but morocco would really have to reform its navy from a coastal one to a sea one. To be honest, the best way to have an Islamic colonization of part of the new world would be through al andalus. Historically when Andalus was unified with the Umayyad it was the most scientifically "liberal" nation in the Islamic world. In the long term probably an andalus will have a more different sleep than the rest of the islamic world, if this will create a new sect or something different i do not know

I agree an al andalus that continued being the most open islamic nation is Islam's best shot in being a colonial power alongside the europeans.

basically having 2 chinas separated by centuries?

basically yeah.

For that, the Dutch have to be able to face the French and win.

Undoubtedly France would have to do terrible. Maybe have William the conquerer not conquering England, leading to them not having to fight serious land wars and the nobles gain more power, which cause the Occitans to be more uppity an eventually leave, with France being unstable asf the Dutch and do whatever they want with even britanny.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

I recall reading that criminals in the Islamic world pioneered a rudimentary printing press. Would a Zanj Imamate better patron such endeavors or be more economically decentralized than their peers or contemporaries? Or would the reliance on slavery deter capitalism even more?

As for rebellions, I meant religious rebellions not slave rebellions. And would a Zanj state seek to unite non-Shi’a communities such as Khawarij communities and others oppositional to the Caliphate?

Oh definitely, Shi'a rebellions would pop up rapidly in response to the success of the Imamate. One would imagine the Fatimid movement occurring faster than otl. The founder the Fatimid movement was in fact living in Iraq during the time of the Zanj rebellion and the failure of the rebellion informed his decision to move his sect and followers to the shadow government based in Libya. Qarmatians would also be more bold and end up in a vicious conflict with the Imamate of Mukhtara.

Regarding, economics and capitalism, I am not sure tbh and that would have to be decided much later. The Imamate would be at war for awhile and would have to be forged in war and its political views would be mirrored on this.

 

[holycookie]

I agree an al andalus that continued being the most open islamic nation is Islam's best shot in being a colonial power alongside the europeans.

One thing that I find curious is the state of Islam with two caliphates (Andalus and Ottomans), three (Andalus, Egypt, Ottomans) or worse four (Andalus, Ottoman Egypt and India). Each caliphate will have its own cultural decisions and this will cause in the long run, in my opinion, a disassociation of one Sunni group from the other. If, for example, the calife of the Ottomans prohibits the printing press (as it happens in the OTL) and the calife of Andalus encourages its use, we are going to have generational problems, perhaps to the point of having what happened to the Christian world and even if in an informal way we have different sunni worlds. Or if the calife in control of the medina prevents the passage of Andalusians on pilgrimage

Undoubtedly France would have to do terrible. Maybe have William the conquerer not conquering England, leading to them not having to fight serious land wars and the nobles gain more power, which cause the Occitans to be more uppity an eventually leave, with France being unstable asf the Dutch and do whatever they want with even britanny.

or burgundy does not have a woman as heir giving more time for the kingdom to strengthen against france and austria.

 

[HumptyDumpty]

Regarding, economics and capitalism, I am not sure tbh and that would have to be decided much later. The Imamate would be at war for awhile and would have to be forged in war and its political views would be mirrored on this.

What is the likely consequence of forging political views through war?

Also, to speak more generally:

Ali ibn Muhammad al-Dibaj claimed to be the 'Shumayt' a reference to Yahya ibn Abi'l Shumayt, a supposed younger son of the Prophet Muhammad who was worshipped as a reincarnation of the prophet and possessor of divine powers. Followers of this Shumayt believed that this secondary prophet communed with them and an older man in Mecca who led the sect, declared a young member of their sect as the incarnation of the Shumayt in the year 814 and a rebellion rose up in the Hijaz to overturn the Abbasid Caliphate. The Abbasid crushed the rebellion, but the rebellion had a profound impact on many people, and acted as a catalyst for further Shi'a solidifcations across the region and by the time of the life of Ali ibn Muhammad al-Dibaj, he declared in 858 that he was the Shumayt, a Prophet-God who controlled the weather and held miraculous powers over the world.

Why did weird, radical, almost kuffar stuff like this disappear from the Islamic world? Something like this wouldn’t be tolerated at all in contemporary periods. Even Shi’a Islam has mellowed out in comparison to how it started. What happened?

 

[Metempsychosis]

Why did weird, radical, almost kuffar stuff like this disappear from the Islamic world? Something like this wouldn’t be tolerated at all in contemporary periods. Even Shi’a Islam has mellowed out in comparison to how it started. What happened?

For the modern world, probably globalization causing the standardization of Sunni Islam under Saudi lines. Their establishment of madrassas across the world, spreading their particularly strict interpretation of Islam, might have affected things a lot. As for Shi'a Islam, the Iranian Revolution has perhaps led to many of their clerics being more pragmatic politicians than before: imagine how Catholicism would be if the Pope became the secular ruler of all Italy, and how that would force the Church as a whole to compromise with Italian politicians.

Or perhaps it's just that the wild apocalypticism in these mainline groups has faded somewhat since the early days, like in Christianity.

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

For the modern world, probably globalization causing the standardization of Sunni Islam under Saudi lines.

That is true, but it's only one part of a broader process.

For example, the Fulani Jihads were started in an attempt to purify West African Islam of pagan syncretisms that had been prevalent for many centuries, and were mainly led by local clerics. There were multiple jihad states scattered across West Africa, and there was a serious possibility in the early 19th century that eventually one of them would come out on top and create a caliphate from Lake Chad to Dakar.

Or perhaps it's just that the wild apocalypticism in these mainline groups has faded somewhat since the early days, like in Christianity.

Not that much, though. Plenty of the apocalyptic sects that survived just became obscure Sufi orders or separate religions like Ahmadiyya after a while.

 

[Metempsychosis]

That is true, but it's only one part of a broader process.

For example, the Fulani Jihads were started in an attempt to purify West African Islam of pagan syncretisms that had been prevalent for many centuries, and were mainly led by local clerics. There were multiple jihad states scattered across West Africa, and there was a serious possibility in the early 19th century that eventually one of them would come out on top and create a caliphate from Lake Chad to Dakar.

For that matter, there were also movements in 19th century Indonesia to purify Islam and fight against the Dutch. I wonder how Diponegoro would have led Java and influenced Islam in that region.

Not that much, though. Plenty of the apocalyptic sects that survived just became obscure Sufi orders or separate religions like Ahmadiyya after a while.

True.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

What is the likely consequence of forging political views through war?

Also, to speak more generally:


Why did weird, radical, almost kuffar stuff like this disappear from the Islamic world? Something like this wouldn’t be tolerated at all in contemporary periods. Even Shi’a Islam has mellowed out in comparison to how it started. What happened?

Likely consequence: formation of military governors and warlords as the principle governors in the realms.

These sorts of ideas still exist today in various areas, they are just hidden by different customs and taqqiyyah. However, most important was the process of nationalism that swep many Islamic countries, where Islam was asserted in either a sort of legalistic format within Sunni Islam and or through the left-wing westernized forms of Islam that were developed in the Arab and Turkish nationalist countries. In Iran, the rise of the power of the Twelver Clergy as the ruling class in Iran saw the suppression of many Ghulat sects that had coexisted with mainline Twelverism.

Nationalism destroyed many of these types of folk forms of Islam and the various sects by inducing both a national culture which was expressed by a romanticized and national Islam that did not really conform to the reality of Islam universally. Regardless, the ideas of these Shi'a of the past does not differ immensely from the mainline Twelver view of the power of the Imamiyyah. The doctrine of Wilayah Tawkwiniyyah states that Allah has given all power to the 12 Imams to rule all atoms in the universe and that while Allah is One, he has given all authority to the Ahl ul-Bayt to operate and control the whole of the universe. Hence, Twelver Shi'a clerics advise their followers generally, to seek supplication and place their prayers towards the Imamiyyah, and not to Allah, for the Imamiyyah have been given the powers of the earth and universe. Ultimately, there is not much difference between this sort of ideology and the ghulat sects of the past, hence why they coexisted relatively well, with some bad situations, until the modern age of nationalism and westernization.

 

[HumptyDumpty]

These sorts of ideas still exist today in various areas, they are just hidden by different customs and taqqiyyah. However, most important was the process of nationalism that swep many Islamic countries, where Islam was asserted in either a sort of legalistic format within Sunni Islam and or through the left-wing westernized forms of Islam that were developed in the Arab and Turkish nationalist countries. In Iran, the rise of the power of the Twelver Clergy as the ruling class in Iran saw the suppression of many Ghulat sects that had coexisted with mainline Twelverism.

What could have changed for this sort of weird and heretical Islam to gain greater prominence? I recently learned about the Nadjat Khawarij who dispensed with the concept of Imamate allowing them to essentially have very ghulat ideas be “compatible” with Islam. Could that allow for strange ideas surrounding reincarnation and even the diefication of walis more common?

I am interested in writing a FTL that makes the Islamic world way more interesting than it is OTL and this might be a way to do that. Removing nationalism is a possibility and Marxism is already practically dead in the Middle East as it is. But how do you make these very weird or heretical Islams become very prominent?

Likely consequence: formation of military governors and warlords as the principle governors in the realms.

So not that different from OTL? Or would the distinction be that the various governors would be far more integrated with each other than they were OTL?

 

[Vinization]

Kuhikugu somehow grows even more than it did IOTL (some extra domesticates or crops, perhaps?) and forms a state that dominates the Xingu River and, thus, much of the interior of Brazil.

Something similar regarding the Marajoara culture, too.

 

[Byzantion]

How about a Sami Empire ?

 

[Lalli]

How about a Sami Empire ?

It is pretty hard get Sami Empire without very early POD. Their region is not most suitable for constructing independent empire.

 

[Beatriz]

An Islam-like religion that believes in reincarnation is the Druze - could a head of such a religion be selected by incarnation like the lamas?

 

[Sport25ing]

Romania could have the entire islands that today is pretty much Kiribati - very late in the 19th century, but pretty much VERY late, maybe 1880's or 1890's. I've actually posted that threat in the post-1900's: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/romania-pacific-colony-world-consequences.499079/

 

[Concerned Brazilian]

The Sur Dynasty of India briefly displaced the Mughals.
Besides the rupee, they left no enduring legacy, but could be an interesting POD

 

[AlternateEagle]

Engaruka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ancient city in Africa that could have become a Iron Age civilization

Later Zhao - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeniseian dynasty in China

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A prime example would be Japan just after the Sengoku period, which had a large, well equipped and disciplined army that ended up being defeated during the invasion of Korea, thus nullifying any chance of imperial expansion

this is based on my cursory reading on quora on the subject so I defer to people more knowledgeable on the regioin/period than I:

it seems the main thing to prevent is Hideyoshi's death (at least in its OTL place). Since FWIG most of the soldiers who were loyal to him returned to Japan on his death to defend his clan/family?
Secondly, let Kato Kiyomasa drown at crossing the Tumen River - or be killed just before then - so that he doesn't attack the Manchus (what led to the ultimate defeat). Not sure if the defeat was due to the soldiers who had left having gutted the army leaving him with a skeleton crew, or if it would've happened regardless of how big his forces were.

What effect would either of these have on the Japan? Would there be a Japanese empire? Or would Nurahaci and the Manchus still get involved? What would this mean for Japanese isolationism?

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

Secondly, let Kato Kiyomasa drown at crossing the Tumen River - or be killed just before then - so that he doesn't attack the Manchus (what led to the ultimate defeat). Not sure if the defeat was due to the soldiers who had left having gutted the army leaving him with a skeleton crew, or if it would've happened regardless of how big his forces were.

Given that the only thing the Jurchens did was give the Japanese force of 8,000 a bloody nose and didn't participate at all in the war afterward because the Chinese and Koreans rebuffed their offer of joining (on account of them being filthy barbarians and all), I have no idea how this piddling little battle led to Japan's defeat.

What effect would either of these have on the Japan? Would there be a Japanese empire? Or would Nurahaci and the Manchus still get involved? What would this mean for Japanese isolationism?

Hideyoshi's death: little to none. The second invasion had already been contained and was going nowhere when Hideyoshi died.
Kato Kiyomasa's Jurchen adventure had basically zero impact on anything of any relevance, so I have no idea why you bring it up.

As for Japanese isolationism? Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that the realistic outcome of Japan getting a toehold on mainland Asia is:

1. #CurrentDynastyName tells Japan to pay tribute and be good, brotherly neighbors.​

2. Japan refuses.​

3. #CurrentDynastyName attacks the Japanese toehold and dislodges them from it after some fighting, probably with the help of lots and lots of local guerrillas since the behavior of your average Japanese soldier on a good day in the Imjin War was a cross between the IJA in Nanking and the Dirlewanger Brigade in Poland.​

One major effect might be that, given a long enough naval war with an insistent-enough Japan, China would place more importance on actively clearing the seas of pirates instead of doing sea bans, since the pirates have gone from being a passive nuisance to maritime trade to an active military threat, since their bases are dotted all over the Japanese coast and they are basically outriders for the Japanese military. And after that, it only takes a little bit of rewiring to turn a defensive fleet into an offensive and exploratory fleet akin to the Royal Navy.

 

[GenghisKhanfan]

This might've already been put out there as I haven't fully read all the proposed ideas, but what about a more stabilized Polish state which forms a dynastic union with Lithuania, establishes a centralized government (i.e: no liberum veto, nobles brought under central authority) and expands eastward into Russia, southward into the Balkans and Crimea, and possibly even westward into Germany? Could lead to a large Polish empire extending toward the Urals in the east and the Bosporus Straits in the south....or even lead to a dynastic/personal union with the Holy Roman Empire.

I would hasten to add that it would only need to last long enough to effect some changes to the history of Germany, Poland, the Balkans and Russia which would be in some cases long-lasting.