Elizabeth I is born a boy

I see.

Hard to say, you changed most of his life. :D
In OTL he grew up as a protégé of the emperor, in ATL his position is much less clear.
We don't even know whether he is a Catholic or a Lutheran.
Without the Spanish oppression who knows what path he would have chosen.

He was very rich, one of the wealthiest men in Europe, high-born, and an innate politician.
(Legend has it that he got his nickname for talking plenty without ever committing to anything.)

Pragmatism would probably have led him to be loyal to the English crown, most of his possessions are under English rule and apparently local nobility and people are respected.
If the English king can trust him he could be extremely useful.

If you can make any recommendations as to changes he might have responded in this timeline, I would be interested. Do you think he would have remained loyal to England? Or do you think the Netherlands might have taken another course altogether?
 
And now for the rest of those comments, MC. I hope my arguments, past and in this present post, have clarity because I have been drinking at home this afternoon. :D

Scots

I agree with you here. There would have been a revolt of some kind with Mary carted off, but I needed that to make sure she isn't TOO Roman Catholic. The question is then whether the revolt would have been successful. So let's push back Mary's arrival in England until 1552 to ensure that there is no rebellion at all. Also, the Auld Alliance will not need to be cancelled in TTL, so one of the major causes of concern for Scots nobility is removed. That would comply with all the major Scots demands of the era.

Age of Majority

In our TL, Henry VIII left a will that established a Council of Regency until the child was eighteen. He would have done the same in TTL, so Edward VI would have, at the latest, assumed his powers as King by 1551. I gave it to him a year earlier.

I read the remainder of your comments and disagree that medieval monarchs necessarily ascribed to the theory of just war, and especially not if they were leading a reformed Church calling into question all that Catholic theology.

Would welcome your comments, but can I kindly request that you not copy and paste huge amounts of text, as I have some difficulty reading it? Cheers.
 
If you can make any recommendations as to changes he might have responded in this timeline, I would be interested. Do you think he would have remained loyal to England? Or do you think the Netherlands might have taken another course altogether?
I'll give it some thought.

It's pretty hard to imagine the Netherlands without the Revolt, it was a very defining period in our history.
Just the fact that the North and South don't become separated has major economical, demographical and political repercussions.
 
I am making a few assumptions about the psychology of the characters. I think, later in his life, Henry VIII would have taken the opportunity to repair the relationship with France. It had been his initial foreign policy as a young king to seek reconciliation with France to stand against the perceived greater threat of Suleiman and the Ottoman Empire. The title of "Defender of the Faith" is one that he obviously took very seriously and, in this matter, he would have seen himself as a prince of Christendom.

Almost every young Christian prince believes that a Crusade against the (insert Muslim power of the day) is a good idea. Then they start thinking that maybe taking that (city, duchy, town, kingdom) next door looks a lot more appealing.

The title "Defender of the Faith" was awarded for his theological arguments against Lutheranism. He had been trained as a Churchman while his brother Arthur was alive, and took a lot of interest in the rising problem of Lutheranism.

I believe that, with the heir secure and with him matured (by this time, he would be in his earlier forties), he would have realised that Wolsey and his divorce had pissed nearly everybody off, and the French were causing trouble up north in his own backyard. Plus, I think that Anne's influence would have been far greater in TTL. Having had a father as a diplomat, she would have been well-versed in statecraft. I suspect that Henry had destroyed her relationship with the Earl of Northumberland on the instigation of her sister, Mary, who was a regular for the king and his esquire for a while, then felt guilty about doing so after he stopped doing the horizontal folk dance. And Anne wanted recognition from France, where she grew up, on her marriage.
Why did Anne crave foreign recognition, she was the Queen-Mother and now had a rather large part to play in the domestic affairs of England. Her husband was satisfied with his kingdom now secure, and maybe he would do something fool-hardy and she could start really running things.

And for Henry, the blessing of a son would confirm to him that he had done the right thing, psychologically impacting his straying habits.
If the son confirmed that he had done the right thing enough that he toned down his extra-maritial affairs, then how would it not also back up his idea that what he had done in regards to the Churches and Monasteries was "God's Will"? If you go along this line of reasoning, Roman Catholicism was barren for him, but his "Protestant"-ism was fruitful. With the Protestant Anne as his Queen, he may push more toward Protestantism. The push toward greater Protestantism could probably be seen in Henry's mind as strengthening his dynasty, since religious loyalty and state loyalty were already conflated in his monastery "reform".

Also, I have a feeling that Anne would be less concerned with Henry's affairs if she had a son. That boy means that she is now Queen for the long-term, and that she will have an important part to play in politics.

Reformism
After the mess of the divorce, but with a secure marriage now on him, I think he would have had greater confidence in the Acts in Restraint of Appeal, and would have prevented the Ten Articles, making takes the whole issue back to what it actually was, a declaration of England's independence from Rome. Henry didn't want to change doctrine; he wanted to move the locus of power from the Vatican to the Palace.
Henry didn't even want to move the locus of power that much. All he wanted was a son. But once politics forced him to nationalize the Church he saw the amazing opportunities that this nationalization allowed him, and he took full advantage of it.

I think that with Anne and her family in the ascendancy there will be a push toward more Protestantism. Once the monasteries and other church lands are cut-up and handed out to the nobility, the Rubicon has been passed, and Protestantism has clearly won.

With Katherine of Aragon dead, you could pass a law making her legitimate again and putting her into the line of succession. After all, that is what Henry did in OTL anyway with the Third Succession Act. Plus, putting Mary into the French line of succession works; it gives the dynasty credibility as well. Both she and the Duke were "spares" (Mary is not marrying the Dauphin) and the Tudors were ones for making marriage alliances. For Francis, the possibility that his sons will be kings of England and France if the little blighter across the channel dies.
If Anne's marriage and her son are recognized as legitimate in France (as you have Anne desperately wanting) then Katherine's marriage and its issues (Mary) had to be illegitimate. So why would Francis marry his son, even a spare one, to a bastard?

Furthermore, I still don't think that you're going to change the generally anti-French (and therefore pro-Hapsburg) direction of Henry's policy. Henry was not thinking like a 16th of 17th century strategist, weighing the balance of power and what not. He was very much in a 15th century mindest, still quite set on the long English obsession of warring with France.

So IF your going to have Henry marry off Mary to a foreign prince across the channel (I think Scotland would be a good place to look for a husband) then I would think that foreign prince would be Protestant. If Henry marries her to a Catholic then you've just made their court the center of pro-Catholic intrigues against England. And given her Catholic husband a relatively good claim to the English throne, and her children quite a convincingly good claim to the English throne. A Catholic marriage would cause domestic instability, and possibly threaten the long-term prospects of the Tudor Dynasty. Therefore, Henry would not let that happen.

The Monasteries
Yes, admittedly, it was an engineered political crisis. Why was Henry VIII creating that crisis? Because he needed to buy off the uproar about the changes in doctrine, which he never really supported in the first place and thought was necessary because no son had thrown himself and thus God must be angry with him. Plus, Jane Seymour was much more the Protestant than Anne Boleyn. so the crisis may not have occurred this time around at all, but Henry would have kept the monasteries idea on the backburner for future capital raising, and I have him doing exactly that. Cromwell would have kept pushing and, when it goes unpopular, there is no Cromwell around to confirm or deny anything that was said because he's been the "fall guy".
Your really missing the point here. The monasteries weren't about buying people off so that they accept some doctrinal changes in the English Church (after all, the big BIG HUGE change, splitting from Rome, already happened, so after that its small potatoes). The "reform" of the monasteries was about tying the English nobility to the survival of the (Protestant) Tudor Dynasty. The Tudors, as I stated previously, had a very weak claim to the throne (the fact that Henry VII was alive at the end of Bosworth Field was about the extent of their legitimacy) and both Henry VII and VIII were fearful of renewed attempts to topple their dynasty. Once Henry split with Rome, the monasteries presented an opportunity to Henry. He gave them to the nobles, who accepted them gladly. But, if the Catholic Church (and some other royal claimant) were ever to come back, all that land would have to be given back. Thus the nobles had a very great interest in making sure that a Tudor was on the throne.

By this stage, both Henry and Francis certainly weren't going to insist upon the money back and I doubt that Pope Paul would be happy with nothing less than a kiss on the ring.
I think the idea that the French would nationalize their Church ala England is silly. It simply would not happen. End of story.

War against Charles V
What's the use of maintaining an allied military if you aren't going to use it to back the biggest bully on the block, Charles V? Because Charles V has been busy with England and France, he doesn't have the equipment to deal with Saxony, which was a hotbed of Lutheranism, and the much of the territory surrendered by the Emperor belonged to the Electors of Saxony.
Why is England fighting in the Holy Roman Empire to begin with? So France can gain the Rhine? Why what a wonderful idea, lets help our oldest enemy make major territorial gains in an area that is an essential piece of our economy. I'm shocked Henry VIII didn't think of this himself.

I agree with you here. There would have been a revolt of some kind with Mary carted off, but I needed that to make sure she isn't TOO Roman Catholic. The question is then whether the revolt would have been successful. So let's push back Mary's arrival in England until 1552 to ensure that there is no rebellion at all. Also, the Auld Alliance will not need to be cancelled in TTL, so one of the major causes of concern for Scots nobility is removed. That would comply with all the major Scots demands of the era.
The Scots didn't want to be dominated by England. The Auld Alliance was important insofar as it kept the English from dominating Scotland. If France was allied to England, then the Scots would go looking for another anti-English sponsor, who is this TL apparently is the Emperor Charles V. He would be more than willing to sponsor an uprising in Scotland, since it would appear that the English had conquered the Netherlands (despite the fact they would be militarily incapable of doing the aforementioned action).

Age of Majority
In our TL, Henry VIII left a will that established a Council of Regency until the child was eighteen. He would have done the same in TTL, so Edward VI would have, at the latest, assumed his powers as King by 1551. I gave it to him a year earlier.
If there is a struggle within the regency, then don't be shocked if *Edward VI declares his majority early. The kingdom was not in any legal way bound by Henry's will, so though it could be followed, it could just as easily not be.

I read the remainder of your comments and disagree that medieval monarchs necessarily ascribed to the theory of just war, and especially not if they were leading a reformed Church calling into question all that Catholic theology.
If you think Philip II was a medieval monarch then I think that we have more serious issues then a lack of understanding on the monastery issues. What I was saying was that wars, generally, are fought with a goal in mind. Especially when war was simply a frequently used tool of foreign policy. Philip II will probably go to war with the French, but there will be some gain that he is looking for. For instance, if France stays in Milan, or invades Milan, or maybe there is a succession dispute in France and Philip decided to see if the Tericos could solve it, or something along those lines.

And war for territory is not "Just War". Its state-supported armed robbery.
 
Thanks for the info on William the Silent. I didn't investigate him thoroughly enough - was just looking for a Dutch aristocrat to stick in the job of Lord Lieutenant. Do you think he would still have been an OK pick?
There aren't many high Dutch aristocrats of the Duke or count level left left, because that is how the Burgundians gained the Netherlands. By replacing the Dutch dukes and counts with themselves (often by inherreting the titles). Because of that many of the high nobles in the Netherlands weren't Dutch, like William of Orange (btw don't call him the silent, the reason he gained the nickname silent is almost certainly butterflied away). So if you want someone more native you will either use a lower noble or a 'German'. William the Silent is as good a choice as any of them. Other interesting choices could be the count of Egmond, the count of Hoorne (2 stadholders who were beheaded by Philip II at the start of the 80 year war) or perhaps the duke of cleve, a reasonably strong duchy just east of the Netherlands, which also controls Julich, Berg and Mark.
Btw are the British Dutch interested in expanding their territory to the expense of the principalities east of the Netherlands?
 
I can't really comment on the rest but I don't see the whole thing with Scotland happening. Mary was betrothed IRL, just after Solway Moss (I'm assuming you assume it happens this time, which it may not due to butterflies) and the death of her father James V, but it was always unlikely to last for a few reasons - Regent Arran was temporarily on the pro-English side, and thus assented to the marriage, but he was never very happy about it. Plus he was a weak man, and had a history of changing from side to side.

The Catholic/pro-French faction was unnaturally weakened after Mary became Queen, as their leader, Cardinal Beaton, was arrested, and the northern Lords at that point were too far away to affect events. This would change once the apporbium of the Scottish Church was brought upon the government, and once Cardinal Beaton is back, I think with his increasing influence and the use of Church wealth, the marriage is almost bound to be called off. The demands of the Scottish Parliament over the guarantees were really wrecking clauses, designed to ensure that the marriage effectively did not go ahead. The Scots had no real desire to see the two kingdoms united under Henry or an English monarch as it would mean Scotland would become no more than a puppet of England - if nothing is done about that then you face a major uprising.

I just don't see it happening. The pro-French/Catholic or the pro-independence faction is just too strong and has a lot of cards to its hands, in the shape of Holy Church and the support of most nobles and landowners outside of the Southern Lowlands. Arran is going to blow with the wind, once the Catholic faction reasserts itself as it is bound to do he will side with them and cancel the marriage. For that reason I don't see anything other than a forced marriage after full-scale, successful invasion, and even then it would face prolonged unrest and revolt.
 

Deleted member 5909

Jane Seymour was much more the Protestant than Anne Boleyn.
Actually, Jane Seymour was a pious Catholic; while Anne did have Lutheran sympathies, Jane did not by any means. It was she who spearheaded the reconciliation between Henry and Mary and her family had been longtime supporters of Queen Katherine. Indeed, while her brother would come to embrace the reformed faith in later years, during the downfall of Anne the Seymours were more aligned with the conservative faction. Jane even begged for the lives of the rebels who fought during the Pilgrimage of Grace -- a Catholic rebellion in the North.
Further, Martin Luther was said to have referred to her as an "enemy of the gospel."

Anne would be more likely to influence Henry towards reform than anything, IMO, especially if she'd given him his longed for son. One must remember that while Henry almost did away with Katherine Parr for attempting to influence his religious policies, his situation with Anne was much different. For one, he was younger and not as volatile; besides, he was very much under Anne's spell, and the birth of a son would most likely further this, not to mention strengthen the influence and power Anne and the Howard faction held at court.

...just thought I'd add my own two cents, for what its worth.
 
What Would their Seventeenth Century Have Been Like?

Absolutely brilliant. :cool:Extrapolating this out to the seventeenth century, though, would the underlying economic influences of the rising Puritan
mercantile class have still led to an English Civil War, and would the
long-term economic problems of England during Elizabeth I's later reign
still have resulted in a civil war? It wasn't all James I's intransigence
over the divine right of kings and constitutional fallout that led to OTL's
version...

Pinkcat
 
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