Eire declares war on Nazi Germany

[Derek Jackson]

In OTL Southern Ireland's formal neutrality was a demonstration of independence as much as anything else. In practice in many ways, notably allowing Irish citizens to joing the UK military, Ireland's neutrality was very pro ally.

However certain potentially useful bases for the battle of the Atlantic were denied to Britain.

Now De Valera is on record as sympathising with the UK as against the Nazis (though some of his colleagues were actually the opposite)

Suppose in 1941 something happens to shock his conscience. He will have been deeply opposed to "euthinasia" the term used for the murder of disabled people.

It would have been easy enough to come up with a basis for war. Southern Ireland said that all Ireland was the National Territory. The Nazis repeatedly bombed Belfast.

If De Valerea had declared war how much does it in fact help the UK?

What, if any, difference does it make to relations between the parts of Ireland.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Alot more Allied sailors survive because the trip is shorter and the air-umbrella is bigger.

 

[OperationGreen]

The Royal Navy after repairs gets hold of the treaty ports which will aid in defending and supplying convoys.

Most importantly I feel the Allies will get the advantage in range from bases near Cork to cover more of the Convoy routes with Aircraft.

Ireland would be pushed to deploy more then a Division of infantry to help the Allies. However Ireland been in the war will help with the US involvement.

The long term benefits will be good for Ireland. It will probable cause a strengthening of relations between EIRE and the UK and give Ireland a vast amount more aid under the Marshall plan.

 

[Rocano]

Look Ireland was to poor to get involved in a War. Ireland was not only asserting Freedom they were also keeping there People safe. If Ireland had gone to war then they would have been under British and American Influence for years. But since we didnt we survived

 

[Lord Insane]

Getting directly involved in the War wouldn't have cost that much. There wouldn't be that many more Irish soldiers fighting for the Allies, probably, so the key thing would be the use of Irish airbases and ports. And that would mostly be by other forces then the Irish ones.
As for influence, that applied without Eire joining the War. If Ireland got more from the Marshall Plan, then Ireland might have been richer, without that much more American influence (Sweden...).

 

[Oweno]

Getting directly involved in the War wouldn't have cost that much. There wouldn't be that many more Irish soldiers fighting for the Allies, probably, so the key thing would be the use of Irish airbases and ports. And that would mostly be by other forces then the Irish ones.
As for influence, that applied without Eire joining the War. If Ireland got more from the Marshall Plan, then Ireland might have been richer, without that much more American influence (Sweden...).

I see that but what i think rocano meant was that The Poor Irish Lands would have been bombed beyond repair and would have resulted in abandonment of total Irish Life.

Also Sweden ended up influencing us. Ever heard of IKEA? That has the worst crap ever. They sell great Swedish Food however

 

[alephh]

Less nazis would have escaped to Ireland after the war ;-)

Negative: Possible couple of nazi bombardment.

Positive: (A lot of) Allied money from all the supply/troops transported through Ireland.


_

 

[Lord Insane]

I see that but what i think rocano meant was that The Poor Irish Lands would have been bombed beyond repair and would have resulted in abandonment of total Irish Life.

Also Sweden ended up influencing us. Ever heard of IKEA? That has the worst crap ever. They sell great Swedish Food however

Why would Ireland be bombed beyond repair? Britain was in the way, and was a more important target.
As for IKEA, it is quite impressive how a state of less population then London have spread their culture world-wide, no?
But I meant that Sweden didn't get that influenced by the USA, despite the aid gotten from the Marshall Plan.

 

[Ed Costello]

Ireland siding with the British would go down like a lead balloon with Irish Republicans. Any Irish leader suggesting Irish troops join a war on the side of a British-led alliance is going to have a fight on his hands - literally as well as politically - unless he's extremely careful and more than a little lucky.

 

[Oweno]

Ireland siding with the British would go down like a lead balloon with Irish Republicans. Any Irish leader suggesting Irish troops join a war on the side of a British-led alliance is going to have a fight on his hands - literally as well as politically - unless he's extremely careful and more than a little lucky.

Thank you, my good feind

 

[Lord Insane]

Thank you, my good feind

It would be quite hard to make it acceptable to the general public, as Ed Costello said, but that doesn't make Ireland into a bombed-to-pieces place (unless the Irish do it themselves, but that would be silly).

 

[birdy]

The Irish could do what some other countries did and declare war in the closing months of the war.

 

[Ed Costello]

It would be quite hard to make it acceptable to the general public, as Ed Costello said, but that doesn't make Ireland into a bombed-to-pieces place (unless the Irish do it themselves, but that would be silly).

I should add that, should de Valera stick his neck out and declare for the Allies, anyone who does attempt to hinder the war effort in the name of Irish Republicanism is going to be in the deep cacky when the Final Solution is revealed to the world. The movement could be damaged beyond redemption - almost certainly any paramilitary activity of the like seen during the Troubles won't happen due to the stigma attached to it. How this affects Northern Ireland would be interesting to observe.

 

[67th Tigers]

There's a Third Reich variant which allows you to add Eire:

http://www.avalanchepress.com/Eire_Third_Reich.php

 

[CalBear]

It would not have been in Erie's best interest to take a stand for either side in WW II. While it would have been helpful to the Allied cause, especially as a basing site for patrol aircraft during the Battle of the Atlantic, as it would have reduced the air coverage gap by several hundred miles, it would have benefited Erie not at all.

Even if Erie only deployed a Division (and it is likely that the allies would have expected more than one) that would still be 10,000 or more men pulled from the local economy with anywhere from 1000 to 8,000 getting killed or wounded, thereby being lost permanently to the Republic (out of a total male population of 1.5M). The cost of supporting the battle crippled would have been a drag on the Irish economy for decades. Marshall Plan monies would not have been as lavish as some seem to believe since they were meant to rebuild damaged infrastructure and Erie was far enough from German bases that little damage would have been inflicted from bombers.

What does Erie GAIN in this scenario? The U.S. already had good relations and warm natiopnal feeling towards the Island, thanks to the utterly huge number of Irish Americans and their political influence. The UK was not going to change policy toward the Republic and there was zero change of the UK leaving the North (which, based on the votes of the population, it was quite right not to do). The Republic continued to trade with the Allies throughout the war, so ecomomics would not have been improved.

What doe Erie LOSE in the scenario? Well there is a small, but real, chance of a Civil War, the IRA was in close contact with the Reich, urging Germany to supply the Republic with at least weapons, if not direct support, to drive the British out of the aforementioned North. This would make the Republic a battleground, with, at the least, a proxy war being waged. Even without the horror of a Civil War & the impact of combat losses that has been noted earlier, Erie loses what is perhaps the cornerstone of her Foreign Policy, neutrality.

The policy of unarmed neutrality, while difficult for most residents of countries with robust militaries to fathom, worked for Erie. Even today Erie's military, and the related costs, as miniscule compared to her European neighbors. The savings to the national treasury from this policy have been enormous, something that can not be downplayed when one is talking about a relatively poor country. Taking sides during WW II would have naturally led to taking sides in the Cold War, which would once again have benefited NATO far more than it would have the Republic.

No, for Erie, the best course was the one it choose. That this course made the war more difficult for others is regretable, but Dublin made the right choice for her citizens.

 

[Lord Insane]

Sweden was barely affected by the War. Hardly any bombings at all. Sweden got aid from the Marshall Plan.

 

[RPW@Cy]

An obvious casus belli would have been the repeated German air raids on Ireland, especially the one of May 31 1941 that killed 20 people in Dublin. The Irish government would have been fully within their rights to treat these attacks as acts of war, and I would have thought that only the most fanatical of republicans would have had difficulty with it.

As has already been mentioned it would have made the battle of the Atlantic a lot easier - though unless it made such a large improvement as to render a 1943 D-Day possible (I don't know how likely this is, but I offer it up for discussion...) I don't think this would make much difference to the war as a whole.

As for other issues, De Valera is quite sufficiently wily to ensure that Ireland extracts a maximum of benefit and a minimum of pain from the war. So we get British and American (probably mostly the latter) ships and aircraft based in the Republic doing the heavy lifting in the Battle of the Atlantic, and the Irish army not expanding much more than it did anyway (it more than quadrupled in size during the war years, IIRC), one important difference is that the thousands of men OTL who went to Britain to do "war work" (quite a few of whom were killed in "industrial accidents") would stay at home and join the Irish Army instead and probably form the nucleus of any expeditionary force. I can certainly see them sent to Italy if not North Africa or France - Dev would no doubt love to arrange a situation were Irish troops could be presented as liberating the Vatican - but their contribution to the war effort is unlikely to exceed that of, say, Brazil.

One area were things are likely to be very different however is in relations with the North. Ireland's neutrality during the war, and especially Dev's visit to the German embassy in Dublin to sign the Book of Condolence opened on the death of Adolf Hitler (note to our American cousins, Dev never bothered to go to the American embassy to sign the Book of Condolence opened on the death of president Roosevelt) caused a great deal of bitterness in the North - I for one can remember protestant politicians citing the Book of Condolence issue as a reason not to trust the Republic well into the 1990's. It's difficult to believe that things would not have gone much better if the Republic had been a comrade in arms instead and if the pro-violence Republicans could be credibly portrayed as Nazi sympathisers.

 

[simonbp]

Yeah, I think the shear strategic value of Irish bases/ports would be enough that the Irish could get off with only token infantry commitments, and the Allies wouldn't complain...

So here's the better question: When do they declare war? Almost certainly not in 1939, though in 1940 the UK was getting pretty desperate willing to bargain. The most likely time, though is probably soon after the American entry in 1941, as then the Irish can get concessions from both the US and UK (and not worry about opposition from Irish-Americans, who had enough on their hands)...

Simon

 

[Rocano]

Look Ireland would not have declared War. But if they had than De Valera would still be remembered as a Great Man in Ireland if not a Greater Man.

 

[Derek Jackson]

My assumption was that the declaration takes place in the spring of 1941. It would be a response to the bombing of NORTHERN Ireland.

Germany did not mean it but did drop bombs on Dublin. It appologised and paid compensation.

In theory Eire claimed the whole of the island as "National Territory". By all logic the South would then comdemn the terror bombing of Belfast. In OTL in fact the Dublin Fire Brigade went up North when Belfast suffered from Nazi air bourne terrorism.

If De Valera wanted to go to war this would be a logical basis. I suspect it would have been harder to declare war after Barborossa - becoming an ally to the Soviet Union would be hard.