Effects of a Japanese attack on the USSR in World War 2

So I'm from what I understand here a Japanese offensive into Russia would not really impact the war in the West that much.
Stalin would probably be more paranoid than OTL which would definitely lead to a harsher cold War.
It sounds like the Japanese are still headed to war with the us here weirdly enough though.
 
A Japanese attack after BARBAROSSA starts has to prevent some of the troops and resources from the Pacific/Siberia from moving west. How much that affects things is hard to say. For sure the Japanese cannot attack north and south, so an attack north presupposes no attack south and that the raw materials especially oil are flowing in to Japan.
 
If Japan and the Axis are able to take out the USSR, what does that peace deal look like?

Honestly, I don't think it's feasible to knock the USSR out of the war, at least not quickly. Even if they somehow managed it, they'd be exhausted from the effort and would need to devote enormous resources towards the occupation of Soviet territory. Which means the Anglosphere would be able to continue the fight. Once the Allies develop working nukes, it's pretty much game over for the Axis.
 
I don't think even a combined Japan/ Germany attack would work even if hitler wasn't in charge. Would japan's airforce be able to strike Russian factories moved east?
 
So far I've worked out a rough timeline:
Late 1941/early 1942: Japan attacks the USSR. Pearl Harbor is butterflied though there is still a naval war later on.
1942-1943: Japanese forces gain momentum as they march forward.
1944: as soviet war production gears up they take the fight to the Japanese.
1944-1945: Japan retreats to Manchuria and the home islands.

Possible changes:
Stalin and the Soviet military focus more on this area as a result of two invasions by Japan. This results in more direct soviet intervention in Korea much sooner
 
Seems like two choice of attack times. Before Pearl Harbor, August or September 41 like The Red's article above
OR
August 42, after the oil is secured, and after Burma and instead of further attempted advances in Aleutians or South Pacific, Japanese attack Siberia, with the main advantage to the Axis being closing the lend lease route.

Problem for the Japanese was; they secured the oil, but could not make large enough use of it. Aside from the Dutch sabotage, shortage of Japanese petroleum engineers and techs, there was a transport problem. Numbers vary depending on source, but in 1941 Japan possessed 40 to 60 'oil tankers'. The higher number was insufficient, and if it includes old hulks used for harbor storage, small coasters, and the naval oilers, then the blue water transports may have been as few as 40. John Ellis in 'Brute Force' examines the course of Japanese petrol usage during the war & his numbers show Japan never recovered imports close to prewar levels. During the war there was a large scale effort to convert industry back to coal, which was easier to import from China. Even the Japanese Navy, which could steam directly to the East Indies refineries and refuel at the source had trouble keeping enough fuel on had to support operations.

To put it another way; the willingness of the US and allies to continue the war waived away all gained in Japans gamble in its strike south strategy. Japanese industry & Army administration were never able to properly consolidate and exploit the resources captured. They staved off complete collapse for a few more years, but by 1944 they were running on fanaticism & that the Pacific war was a secondary priority for the Allies.
 

trurle

Banned
Seems like two choice of attack times. Before Pearl Harbor, August or September 41 like The Red's article above
OR
August 42, after the oil is secured, and after Burma and instead of further attempted advances in Aleutians or South Pacific, Japanese attack Siberia, with the main advantage to the Axis being closing the lend lease route.
Attack on USSR in 1942 was not plausible, because it would be vetoed by Emperor, regardless of situation. IOTL, Hirohito was very difficult to convince to declare even war against US, Dutch and British in 1941, and adding much feared USSR to equation was not a choice. Attack on USSR in August-September 1941, on the other hand, was seriously considered and even tactical preparations were made until deciding "Southern route" 10 August 1941, after the surprisingly weak opposition in French Indochina has opened new opportunities.
 
Actual proposed division of Japan into Four Zones as Germany was as well. Tokyo Prefecture would have been like Berlin divided among the four Pacific Powers. Note lack of France.
800px-The_first_proposals_for_the_division_of_Japan_-_WW2.png
 

trurle

Banned
I don't think even a combined Japan/ Germany attack would work even if hitler wasn't in charge. Would japan's airforce be able to strike Russian factories moved east?
The absolute maximal line the Japanese could or would want to advance is Khovsgol-Baikal bottleneck. The landscape is very good for static defenses for both sides (wide plain flanked by steep mountains on sides), while the Ulan-Ude based Japanese land bombers and Gusinoye-lake based seaplanes can bomb at extreme range both North Sea route convoys and most of Ural industrial area.



In these circumstances, Stalin is likely to seek a form of peace treaty, or at least ceasefire, been faced by imminent famine due to combination of both loss of domestic food production and reduced throughput of Allied supply routes. Situation with food in USSR was very tight in 1943 even IOTL.
 

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elkarlo

Banned
Most likely they take over the Pacific Coastline and maybe 100 miles inward and call it a day. Outside of Vladavostak, I don't see anything there worth anything.
They could push a bit into areas around manchuria, give the TSRR was there, plus some transit assets coming out of manchuria. Still it's not that much deeper.
 
So far I've worked out a rough timeline:
Late 1941/early 1942: Japan attacks the USSR. Pearl Harbor is butterflied though there is still a naval war later on.
1942-1943: Japanese forces gain momentum as they march forward.
1944: as soviet war production gears up they take the fight to the Japanese.
1944-1945: Japan retreats to Manchuria and the home islands.

Possible changes:
Stalin and the Soviet military focus more on this area as a result of two invasions by Japan. This results in more direct soviet intervention in Korea much sooner

Issue is still oil and fuel, without it, the war effort is going to stall by 1942 as the economy/war machine comes apart from lack of resources. As pointed out, even after taking the Southern Resource Zones, the Japanese were literally running on fumes by 1944. Unless the USSR spontaneously implodes from the German attack in 41, there's not a lot Japan can gain from committing against the Soviets.

I wonder if maybe you could have a timeline where Japanese don't extend themselves into China. Granted you probably butterfly them joining the Axis at all.
 
They could push a bit into areas around manchuria, give the TSRR was there, plus some transit assets coming out of manchuria. Still it's not that much deeper.

Japan's territorial goals more or less coincided with the geographic limits of "greater Manchuria." They only wanted a small buffer on the Western side of the Great Khingan Mountains as it was not logistically possible to drive all the way to Lake Baikal. The Japanese also considered landing on Kamchatka, particularly at Petropavlovsk.

If they failed to win a decisive victory against Soviet forces in the Trans-Baikal region, however, they might have been tempted to lunge at Chita.

300px-Manchuria.png



Issue is still oil and fuel, without it, the war effort is going to stall by 1942 as the economy/war machine comes apart from lack of resources. As pointed out, even after taking the Southern Resource Zones, the Japanese were literally running on fumes by 1944. Unless the USSR spontaneously implodes from the German attack in 41, there's not a lot Japan can gain from committing against the Soviets.

I wonder if maybe you could have a timeline where Japanese don't extend themselves into China. Granted you probably butterfly them joining the Axis at all.

According to Masanobu Tsuji, the Japanese War Ministry estimated that if they attacked the USSR under conditions of an American-Dutch oil embargo, the IJA would run out of fuel within 6 months to a year. This was the main reason why the "Southern Advance" policy was formally adopted on August 9th, 1941. The only ways to have Japan attack the Soviet Union in 1941 would be if one or more of the following were true:

- They decided on it earlier (that is, if Hitler tried to get Japanese support from the beginning rather than hiding the Barbarossa Plan from them)
- The US didn't sanction Japan - or Japan took steps to temporarily appease the US
- The Soviets became so badly weakened from the war against Germany that a Japanese offensive would be a walk-over.

Historically none of these conditions were met, and so there was no invasion.
 

trurle

Banned
it was not logistically possible to drive all the way to Lake Baikal. The Japanese also considered landing on Kamchatka, particularly at Petropavlovsk.

If they failed to win a decisive victory against Soviet forces in the Trans-Baikal region, however, they might have been tempted to lunge at Chita.
Unless one more pronge of attack is launched through Ulanqab-UlaanBaatar direction. In this case, logistics allows Japanese to just reach Baikal within 6 months. That pronge was not considered IOTL due expected heavy Soviet-Mongolian field fortifications, which were actually very poorly equipped after Barbarossa started.
The only ways to have Japan attack the Soviet Union in 1941 would be if one or more of the following were true:


- The Soviets became so badly weakened from the war against Germany that a Japanese offensive would be a walk-over.

Historically none of these conditions were met, and so there was no invasion.
The condition "Soviets became so badly weakened from the war against Germany" was true. Regular Siberian divisions were in the process of removal in middle August 1941 (with about 50% of forces already departed, and remainder stripped of most effective war equipment), leaving poorly equipped (i.e. only artillery was immobile coastal artillery), manned by substandard (over-aged) personnel, and barely trained replacements. Japanese just have failed to get enough spy data to understand how much Soviet forces in region were weakened.
 
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Since the Japanese cannot go north and south at the same time, let's presuppose they have the oil and other raw materials they need to keep the war in China going on some level and attack the USSR sometime after Barbarossa kicks off. Let's also assume they wait until Siberian forces and equipment have moved west leaving the east relatively weak. Japanese armor sucks compared to what the USSR has, and their logistics are poor. I would say their army and naval air forces are better than what the Soviets have especially in the east. There is no comparison between the IJN and such Soviet naval forces in the Pacific. Then trans-Siberian RR represents a real vulnerability for the USSR, limited capacity even if not under attack and has multiple places where interdiction would be a real problem.

It was all the USSR could do to deal with a one front war in spite of the many German "failures" such as logistic planning when Barbarossa kicked off. Even if you assume no Soviet forces were sent east to deal with Japan, they still need to provide ammunition and fuel well above what was used 1941/42 in the east when things were at "peace". every bullet or gallon of fuel used in Siberia is not being used against Germany. I can see the USSR conceding everything east of Baikal for sure, fighting as hard as possible but simply deciding that they can do without the far east better than they can do without Moscow or Leningrad because resources were sent east.
 
I don't want to know what a vengeful Stalin would do to Japan after V-E day though.
If there's no Pearl Harbour there's presumably no US outrage at Japan comparable to OTL. This means Roosevelt or Truman would not have used the atom bomb or have the public support to commit a full military occupation leaving stalin to potentially send forces in.

An interesting area I just realised American lend lease to the USSR will be affected given the route from Alaska.I wonder if the US does become involved at least by sending paratroopers to safeguard the supplies or special forces.
 
Unless one more pronge of attack is launched through Ulanqab-UlaanBaatar direction. In this case, logistics allows Japanese to just reach Baikal within 6 months. That pronge was not considered IOTL due expected heavy Soviet-Mongolian field fortifications, which were actually very poorly equipped after Barbarossa started.

An attack in this direction was included in Hachi-Go Concept B (otsu), which was the plan developed in 1938 for a hypothetical war in 1943. But, it appeared in neither the war plan of 1940 or in Kantokuen, which was inspired by the 1940 plan. After reviewing Hachi-Go's "otsu" variant, the Army General Staff concluded that such an undertaking would require 200,000 trucks - double the number that were in the IJA at any given time. Furthermore, the results of the Battle of Khalkhin Gol (Nomonhan Incident) discouraged planners from contemplating large sweeping movements through endless tracts of steppe and desert, which as a rule were devoid of any infrastructure. The logic is easy to see: the distance from the eastern border of Manchuria across Primorye to the Pacific Ocean is about 230 to 330 km, from Baotou to Ulan-Ude nearly 1,300 km.

In any case, the strongest defenses on the Western Front were the Dauriya and Borzya Fortified Regions, not southern Mongolia.

Hachi-Go_Concept_B%2C_1938-39.png

The condition "Soviets became so badly weakened from the war against Germany" was true. Regular Siberian divisions were in the process of removal in middle August 1941 (with about 50% of forces already departed, and remainder stripped of most effective war equipment), leaving poorly equipped (i.e. only artillery was immobile coastal artillery), manned by substandard (over-aged) personnel, and barely trained replacements. Japanese just have failed to get enough spy data to understand how much Soviet forces in region were weakened.

Without the second stage of the Kantokuen buildup (up to 25 divisions from 16), the Kwantung and Korea Armies did not possess the ability to conquer the Soviet Far East. In the opinion of the Kwantung Army, 'to crush the Soviets with such a small force' (760,000 in Manchuria and 120,000 in Korea) was "absolutely impossible." According to Yutaka Imaoka, one of the leading logistics experts in the IJA, operational planners were speaking in terms of 1,200,000 men in 23 or 24 divisions, supported by 35,000 trucks, 500 tanks, and 400,000 horses on the eastern and northern directions alone (that is, excluding Mongolia, Sakhalin, and Kamchatka). Additionally, between 2,100 and 3,100 aircraft, including 350 belonging to the Navy, were expected to take part.

As for the Soviet Union, although the quality of personnel and level of equipment declined significantly compared to early 1941, manpower actually expanded as the Red Army moved to full wartime mobilization. For example, although the number of personnel in the Far Eastern Front and Trans-Baikal Military District was only 651,000 as of 1 June 1941, by 20 December there were more than 1,161,000, including 30,000 trainees.

By comparison, the Japanese estimate of Red Army strength at this time (800,000) was short by more than 300,000 people. Estimates of Soviet tanks and airplanes in-theater were even more off the mark, though the point must be made that their figures refer only to vehicles in operational units, not in reserve or otherwise inactive.

Category.........................................................Soviet figures..............Japanese Intelligence Estimate

Army (excluding Navy, NKVD, Mongols)........... 1,161,000.................. 800,000
Tanks and SP Guns........................................... 2,100........................ 1,000
Aircraft............................................................. 3,100........................ 1,000
Warships.......................................................... 96 ............................ 105

* Approximately 660 tanks and 347 aircraft were inoperable at the beginning of 1941, these numbers may have increased post-Barbarossa owing to demands for spare parts.

Especially in Primorye, Soviet defenses were situated in parallel belts dotted by hardened fighting points. In most cases these were mutually-supporting and well-sited on the avenues of approach over the frontier; only concerted attack by heavy artillery, aircraft, and finally close infantry assault could overcome them. The Soviet border was probably better fortified in 1941 than the Manchurian border was in 1945, where the Kwantung Army's defensive points were more like "islands" than a continuous "Maginot Line."

This is not to say that Japan couldn't win at all: by factors of geography and certain military realities expanded upon below the Russians would have been doomed. But, it would not have been easy, and without the full-bore commitment authorized by Hirohito on July 7th - practically impossible.

Since the Japanese cannot go north and south at the same time, let's presuppose they have the oil and other raw materials they need to keep the war in China going on some level and attack the USSR sometime after Barbarossa kicks off. Let's also assume they wait until Siberian forces and equipment have moved west leaving the east relatively weak. Japanese armor sucks compared to what the USSR has, and their logistics are poor. I would say their army and naval air forces are better than what the Soviets have especially in the east. There is no comparison between the IJN and such Soviet naval forces in the Pacific. Then trans-Siberian RR represents a real vulnerability for the USSR, limited capacity even if not under attack and has multiple places where interdiction would be a real problem.

It was all the USSR could do to deal with a one front war in spite of the many German "failures" such as logistic planning when Barbarossa kicked off. Even if you assume no Soviet forces were sent east to deal with Japan, they still need to provide ammunition and fuel well above what was used 1941/42 in the east when things were at "peace". every bullet or gallon of fuel used in Siberia is not being used against Germany. I can see the USSR conceding everything east of Baikal for sure, fighting as hard as possible but simply deciding that they can do without the far east better than they can do without Moscow or Leningrad because resources were sent east.

Despite their size, the Soviet forces were qualitatively far below the Kwantung Army on a unit-for-unit basis at that time; they weren't as well trained, had poorer officers, lacked the same fanatic motivation, and weren't as physically fit for duty. Because of a lack of operable vehicles they were virtually immobile and could not conduct any long-distance movements. The positioning of the Red Army in a gigantic semicircle around Manchuria also provided the Japanese with an excellent opportunity to destroy it piecemeal.

Worst of all though was the remoteness of the Far East from European Russia, and, as you said, its dependence on the single Trans-Siberian railroad. Without that railroad, the isolation of Soviet forces from the "center" would be complete, and neither they nor the region as a whole had any hope of offering large-scale protracted resistance because they were not self-sufficient in either food or raw materials. (In any case, the only reinforcements promised to the Far Eastern and Trans-Baikal Fronts amounted to five artillery regiments, six guards mortar regiments, and five armored train divisions altogether.)

In light of all this, Soviet operational planning was "damned if you do, damned if you don't." On the Eastern Front, STAVKA's Directive No. 170419 (15 March 1942) actually called for a counteroffensive along both sides of the Sungari River to protect the regional HQ at Khabarovsk, which was right across from the Manchu border. Smaller-scale attacks "in the tactical depth" were to be made elsewhere as official policy called for all-resistance in the border region with little consideration for defense in depth. This would have been a viable strategy if the Soviet command possessed a real mobile reserve, but they had none: the various armored units were scattered willy-nilly among the infantry and at any rate had little ability to maneuver coherently outside their area of deployment.

The outcome would have been that once any given part of the defensive "crust" was breached, the entire front would have crumbled - an effect exacerbated by wasteful counter-attacks similar to what was seen in Europe. Past the initial stages of the war, the Soviets also would have had no answer for the Japanese Navy, Air Force, or WMDs, the latter being especially devastating against food sources and populated areas. To this end, three major 'detachments' of the Japanese Army - Unit 731, Unit 516, and Unit 100 - began studying the most effective way to facilitate ground operations, and "epizootic detachments" were organized at each corps-level headquarters to increase readiness for biological warfare.
 

trurle

Banned
This is not to say that Japan couldn't win at all: by factors of geography and certain military realities expanded upon below the Russians would have been doomed. But, it would not have been easy, and without the full-bore commitment authorized by Hirohito on July 7th - practically impossible.
I agree the authorization by Emperor was nearly impossible. I.m.h.o., the time table was not that rigid - the window of opportunity for final decision stretches well into September 1941, because local Japanese army commander can and will do invasion preparations even in case of decision still pending.
The outcome would have been that once any given part of the defensive "crust" was breached, the entire front would have crumbled - an effect exacerbated by wasteful counter-attacks similar to what was seen in Europe.
This was indeed the repeated outcome of 1941 map wargame i tried few years before with Russian officer. For Japanese, it is difficult to break through, but once Soviet static defense on Far East is pierced or flanked, the conflict inevitably proceed to the theater-wide Soviet rout, with no stop for Japanese until Baikal. Not sure about 200,000 trucks figure for Ulaanbaator thrust though. Required number is likely can be reduced by auxiliary railroad construction, although it require early planning too.
 
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This was indeed the repeated outcome of 1941 map wargame i tried few years before with Russian officer. For Japanese, it is difficult to break through, but once Soviet static defense on Far East is pierced or flanked, the conflict inevitably proceed to the theater-wide Soviet rout, with no stop for Japanese until Baikal. Not sure about 200,000 trucks figure for Ulaanbaator thrust though. Required number is likely can be reduced by auxiliary railroad construction, although it require early planning too.

200,000 trucks was the number needed for all Japanese forces in the western theater, not just the Ulaanbaator thrust. Though, without a general offensive toward Lake Baikal, an isolated drive northward through Mongolia would probably not have been very useful by itself.

The part about the map wargame was very interesting. Were you/are you in the JGSDF?
 
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