Faeelin
Banned
I don't think this point is true, actually; the Russians weren't feeding into the same trading networks that the British and Americans were.
East Asian discovery of the New World
- Thread starter smjb
- Start date
I don't think this point is true, actually; the Russians weren't feeding into the same trading networks that the British and Americans were.
Flubber
Banned
You're looking at the wrong time period.
There wasn't any attempt to build "American" fur trade networks until the European Russian fur stocks collapsed.
As European Russian fur stocks collapsed, the Russians began trading further and further east. The attendant transport costs naturally raised Russian prices, that sparked interest in cheaper sources, and that led European fur traders to North America. While there had been an incidental fur trade between the native peoples and European explorers and fishermen, the first attempt to set up a systematic fur trading network didn't occur until early 1600s over a century after Columbus.
So, no, the presence of furs in North America didn't immediately spark a rush of European exploration because there was a steady supply of cheaper furs still available to Europe.
Centuries later, after the trade networks were firmly established, UK and US traders shipped North American furs to China because A) furs were among the few trade goods China would except and B) there was already a system in place to produce those furs.
The question isn't Poly-South American contact, the problem is the the next step from Poly to (say) Chinese.
Movement of useful goods =/= silver trinkets moving about.
It's only valuable as a trading commodity if its regarded as valuable. And I'm at a loss at to why it would be without monetary value.
"It's pretty, you should buy it!" isn't the best sales pitch.
It's not impossible, but it's not as simple as trading livestock.
Faeelin said:
This thread was about the former, and then somehow we got on the latter since you brought them up.
No. Other people making the voyage does not mean that with the Qing making oceanic commerce by Chinese more difficult that it's feasible for a Chinese merchant to sail to the Pacific NW.
The italicized bit is vital to grasping what I'm trying to say here.
If we're talking about Qing era China interest in furs, then Qing policies are rather relevant. And pre-Qing, is there such a substantial interest in furs as to justify such long distance trade on the part of the Chinese?
Flubber
Banned
It's a response to the shocking ignorance Grey Wolf correctly pointed out is rampant in this thread.
Because, as you've been told at least three times in this thread so far, European Russian fur stocks collapsed leading the Russian further and further eastward to supply their customers.
Strictly speaking, the OP's question was about an East Asian discovery of the Americas: So I can see the Chinese discovering America, but not doing much about it, basically. But what about the Japanese or Koreans? Not about East Asian merchants hearing rumors of European discoveries and deciding to go take a look, but about East Asians getting there first.
Most of the points have already been discussed here, but I'll briefly touch on the points that have been skimmed over or left out.
A "Superpower Korea" needs a PoD long before 1000, not to mention that it almost certainly requires a northern dynasty to fully absorb the southern one(s), politically speaking. While Goryeo and/or Joseon might have made some significant incursions further north, given what occurred IOTL, the population would not have increased significantly given the turmoil which occurred in the region. A divided China could potentially mean a larger Korea which expands into Liaodong, but not a significantly "larger" population, and I already stated in the other thread that China's situation will be stabilized among 1-5 states, most likely one or two, given the geopolitical situation. This scenario also does nothing to sever trading links among the states in East/Southeast Asia, as each would find it profitable to trade with their neighbors as much as possible.
In addition, given that Hideyoshi even thought about conquering China, he would most likely not have been deterred from attempting to conquer a significantly larger Korea, regardless of its size. The assumption stated above also completely ignores the fact that both Korea and Japan had plenty of trade links with each other, along with other states, both before and after the invasion. It would have been profitable for both sides to trade with other states as much as possible, so it really wouldn't make much sense for Japan to attempt to obtain resources through further explorations and/or conquest if they had plenty to begin with though trade.
On another note, the Wokou were devastating enough for China and Korea, in which the first was forced to pool a massive amount of resources in order to prevent further losses, and was one of the reasons for Goryeo's collapse. Considering that a large amount of ships were built in order to patrol the entire stretch of the coastline, along with bans imposed on maritime trade, and the fact that some Chinese peasants decided to raid Chinese coasts as well, suggests that the Chinese were not really in a strong position to support expeditions abroad from around 1350-1400, 1550-1600, and later during the Qing dynasty as well.
A "Superpower Korea" needs a PoD long before 1000, not to mention that it almost certainly requires a northern dynasty to fully absorb the southern one(s), politically speaking. While Goryeo and/or Joseon might have made some significant incursions further north, given what occurred IOTL, the population would not have increased significantly given the turmoil which occurred in the region. A divided China could potentially mean a larger Korea which expands into Liaodong, but not a significantly "larger" population, and I already stated in the other thread that China's situation will be stabilized among 1-5 states, most likely one or two, given the geopolitical situation. This scenario also does nothing to sever trading links among the states in East/Southeast Asia, as each would find it profitable to trade with their neighbors as much as possible.
In addition, given that Hideyoshi even thought about conquering China, he would most likely not have been deterred from attempting to conquer a significantly larger Korea, regardless of its size. The assumption stated above also completely ignores the fact that both Korea and Japan had plenty of trade links with each other, along with other states, both before and after the invasion. It would have been profitable for both sides to trade with other states as much as possible, so it really wouldn't make much sense for Japan to attempt to obtain resources through further explorations and/or conquest if they had plenty to begin with though trade.
On another note, the Wokou were devastating enough for China and Korea, in which the first was forced to pool a massive amount of resources in order to prevent further losses, and was one of the reasons for Goryeo's collapse. Considering that a large amount of ships were built in order to patrol the entire stretch of the coastline, along with bans imposed on maritime trade, and the fact that some Chinese peasants decided to raid Chinese coasts as well, suggests that the Chinese were not really in a strong position to support expeditions abroad from around 1350-1400, 1550-1600, and later during the Qing dynasty as well.
Faeelin
Banned
I guess I don't understand your point? A Chinese state is still going to have issues getting access to Siberian furs, precisely because it would have to trade with the Mongols and Manchus/Jurchens who are in the way. It will do so, but it won't be happy about it, and I could see the Chinese looking for alternate sources, as they tried to find alternate sources of horses.
I've also never said that the Chinese will show up and go YES FURS. What I posited is a Chinese expedition, inspired by knowledge of hte new world, which finds furs along the northwest coast. (Jade would be another valuable product).
Movement of useful goods =/= silver trinkets moving about.
It's only valuable as a trading commodity if its regarded as valuable. And I'm at a loss at to why it would be without monetary value.
"It's pretty, you should buy it!" isn't the best sales pitch.
It's not impossible, but it's not as simple as trading livestock.
"Somehow we got on the latter because you brought up actual East Asians." I guess that's true?
But my point is it's easy to see an alt-Ming or Qing which pursues different policies, which would have enormous effects.
Good questions! It depends, because Chinese tastes tended to vary; furs were less popular than they were under the Tang and Qing, but we have reports of Mongols and Jurchens selling them at border posts in the early Ming.
As for interest in long-distance trade? Well, the Chinese were part of long distance trading networks, so...
I agree that is improbable, which is why I have not raised that as a proposal?
No you fool! The Chinese will never leave their shores, which makes one wonder who the Anti-Exclusion Acts were aimed at.
Actually, I have no idea what that even is.
1) I did not specify North America.
2) These are not mutually exclusive events.
Alright, people in general:
This is about East Asians getting to the Americas before the Europeans. I think I can delay European exploration and suchlike by up to two centuries without going into ASB territory or being too ridiculous, so we've got that expanded window to work with. I am perfectly comfortable accepting a POD in the 1000s or even 900s AD. Change the culture of China or break it up however you like (or, again, ignore China completely and go with Korea or Japan), so long as you can make it plausible and lead to them doing something, anything, that leads to them getting to the Americas before 1700 without European influence. Also, I'm just looking for sustained contact; if they don't colonize in any meaningful way, fine, just so long as their presence is known and significant.
This. This is why we have PODs.
I was more shooting in the dark regarding A Superpower Korea, but regardless all we need is a Korea strong enough to dissuade invasion or possibly Japan does worse during the first phases of the Imjin War to make them reconsider.
Hideyoshi, either we can replace his desire to invade China or we replace him with someone else. The reasoning behind why he wanted to invade Korea were reasonable enough, he needed to burn off the energy of Japan's many, many samurai and fighters that were still about following the Sengoku Period. Perhaps burn their energies elsewhere.
The Maritime Isolation policy is a bit of a sticky wicket in historical and popular view. The actual decree and enforcement of it was not as devestating. As by the end of the century we have Chinese pirate fleets as early as the middle 1500s that threatened the Ming state and Chinese merchants that worked with the Woku. The Isolation Policy and attempts to ban trade with Japan made the Woku WORSE. Which I think could have been avoided or marginalized if the Isolation Policy has not exsisted.
I am not asking for Chinese Exploration up and out of the blue, but the cultivation of a scenario through PODs which would lead to it.
There's an excellent Mongols in the Americas TL. The Yuan Dynasty, if they had conquered Japan, could decide to invade Siberia. They're Mongols, they don't need a concrete reason to invade a place (they invaded Java, before trade was established and without having fought a naval war before).
Then once they invade Siberia they could discover a new land (America) which they would proceed to conquer and/or force to pay tribute.
I just want to mention that I decided to split off that whole idea about China expanding into the South Seas into its own thread. It wasn't going to get the attention it deserves here.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Personally I would agree with those historians who believed that they DID in antiquity but that after a generation or two all you are left with is legend and such
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
wolf_brother
Banned
Southern Song hold the Mongols at bay, turn into a thalassocratic mercantile state, slowly but surely expand their influence, culture, trade, and ultimately settlements across South East Asia, the East Indies, Australia, and Polynesia. Even if/when the old dynasty falls the seeds have been settled, and ultimately whether or not it's an empire based out of Hangzhou or several competing *Chinese successor states spread across the region, at some point some Chinese merchant or explorer 'discovers' South America following the old Polynesian trade routes.
I'll just respond briefly.
Considering how little people know about Korea in general, not to mention before 1000, it would be extremely difficult to put something together. Korea's politics was extremely complicated before 668 due to a balance of power that was prevalent both internally and externally in respect to the states within Southern Manchuria and the peninsula. In other words, your suggestion essentially requires a PoD around 390-500, and even I'm struggling to work that out (see sig) after a few years of research.
Again, if he wanted to invade China, then I don't see why he wouldn't invade Korea no matter how big it becomes. Replacing him with another leader might prevent Japan from invading Korea, but it does nothing to prevent Japan from trading with China, Korea, and the Ryukyu Islands.
The isolation policy was implemented in response to the various raids that had occurred throughout history, starting around 1230 for Korea, and 1300 for China. The bans certainly made the situation worse, as the lack of maritime trade forced peasants along the coast to masquerade as bandits in order to make a living. However, the fact that China resorted to such tactics in order to confront the wokou suggests that the situation was certainly chaotic.
Yes, but each individual issue which contributes to the actual scenario as a whole has to be carefully and thoroughly considered. Ultimately, the main question, as others have repeated before, is exactly why any country in East Asia would want to actively send ships into the vast unknown.
Considering how little people know about Korea in general, not to mention before 1000, it would be extremely difficult to put something together. Korea's politics was extremely complicated before 668 due to a balance of power that was prevalent both internally and externally in respect to the states within Southern Manchuria and the peninsula. In other words, your suggestion essentially requires a PoD around 390-500, and even I'm struggling to work that out (see sig) after a few years of research.
Again, if he wanted to invade China, then I don't see why he wouldn't invade Korea no matter how big it becomes. Replacing him with another leader might prevent Japan from invading Korea, but it does nothing to prevent Japan from trading with China, Korea, and the Ryukyu Islands.
The isolation policy was implemented in response to the various raids that had occurred throughout history, starting around 1230 for Korea, and 1300 for China. The bans certainly made the situation worse, as the lack of maritime trade forced peasants along the coast to masquerade as bandits in order to make a living. However, the fact that China resorted to such tactics in order to confront the wokou suggests that the situation was certainly chaotic.
Yes, but each individual issue which contributes to the actual scenario as a whole has to be carefully and thoroughly considered. Ultimately, the main question, as others have repeated before, is exactly why any country in East Asia would want to actively send ships into the vast unknown.
This is why discussing things with you is annoying. We have been discussing actual East Asians.
How could I have not understood that?It's all so clear now!
Herp derp derpity herpity doo...
Being a jackass is lousy way to start the year.
Now you only have 362 days to make up for it.
That is why I have switched tactics. We are working from a scenario Post-Columbus where the exsistance and wealth of the Americas is known. East Asia shut itself out of world affairs or was too embroiled in regional affairs to take advantage of events in the Americas from practically the start and before the discovery. I want to see what they could have done otherwise.
Agriculture in California as we know it, apart from near the few rivers with year-round water, cannot exist without very extensive irrigation systems. In the southern part of the state, the coast is actually drier than the mountains, because in the mountains you get the benefit of summer thunderstorms, while rainfall on the coast is restricted to the winter. Chinese agriculture, which needs enormous amounts of water if we're talking about rice, wouldn't be feasible outside of the Sacramento Delta region for many years.
There's also a lot of nephrite jade on Taiwan, which is much closer to home and further off in New Zealand.