Dystopian Pre Industrial Societies/States

Well (b) just seems kind of arbitrary to me, particularly since, for many modern people, politics plays the same psychological role as religion did in the past.
Being Jewish or Muslim--yes, even in the early modern period when the Inquisition was operating and religion was a much more salient issue in the area--isn't the same as advocating for the resumption of Jim Crow or advocating for the Holocaust, which are the taboos of our day. Those are the things I'd rather remain taboo. So no, it's really not that arbitrary.
As for (c), I'd rather be investigated by the Inquisition than be ostracised by my neighbours, as at least with the Inquisition I'd have a chance to prove my innocence.
No. You don't. Or, rather, your ability to say that with a straight face is only present, I'm convinced, because you're sure the Inquisition would never come after you for a belief you actually held. Of course, "Spanish Inquisition sympathizer" is easily the sort of opinion that could be considered taboo in today's society, and the evidence showing you doing it is pretty bloody obvious. I wonder how much you'd rather deal with the Inquisition rather than your neighbors once you're exiled from the country or have your stuff taken away.
Because I find the Black Legend kind of annoying.
No one in this thread accused the Spanish Inquisition of doing anything they did not do, or accused it of causing anything it would not have logically done (and yes, converts would have been afraid of the Spanish Inquisition--duh).

Because based on that question, we can likely exclude most preindustrial societies (except the biggest and most organized ones like Rome or Aztecs)
The Triple Alliance wasn't that well organized; at the time of its demise it did not have actual direct rule over most of its "territory." The Mexica and their allies were more interested in gaining tribute, which they did not need to exercise direct control to do.

This aside, I suspect even the Romans didn't have a mass surveillance apparatus; that sort of thing is hard to build.
 
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Being Jewish or Muslim--yes, even in the early modern period when the Inquisition was operating and religion was a much more salient issue in the area--isn't the same as advocating for the resumption of Jim Crow or advocating for the Holocaust, which are the taboos of our day. Those are the things I'd rather remain taboo. So no, it's really not that arbitrary.
I'm sure you know full well that those aren't the only views which modern society taboos. Or, if you don't, that's probably because you tend to take them for granted, just like most 16th-century Spaniards would have taken their taboos for granted.

No. You don't. Or, rather, your ability to say that with a straight face is only present, I'm convinced, because you're sure the Inquisition would never come after you for a belief you actually held.
It's true, if I'd been raised in 16th-century Spain, I expect my views would be within the 16th-century Spanish mainstream. Even if they weren't, though, I'd at least benefit from the fact that the views which the Inquisition would punish you for expressing were pretty explicitly laid out and stable over time, which is an advantage over the current system of taboos.

Of course, "Spanish Inquisition sympathizer" is easily the sort of opinion that could be considered taboo in today's society, and the evidence showing you doing it is pretty bloody obvious. I wonder how much you'd rather deal with the Inquisition rather than your neighbors once you're exiled from the country or have your stuff taken away.
Lots of historians reject the notion that the Spanish Inquisition was some uniquely awful thing, and some of them even still have jobs and social circles. So, I don't think my position is some sort of extremist outlier like you suggest.

No one in this thread accused the Spanish Inquisition of doing anything they did not do, or accused it of causing anything it would not have logically done (and yes, converts would have been afraid of the Spanish Inquisition--duh).
You said it turned Spain into a dystopia and is still harming the country's prospects two centuries after its abolition, that sounds pretty Black Legend-y to me.
 
I am finding people are arguing their biases, which is why I left. I've learned some things (I think better of the reign of terror, less so of the inquisition) but what I've mostly learned is we really can't see a society in absolutist terms.
 
I wonder how much you'd rather deal with the Inquisition rather than your neighbors once you're exiled from the country or have your stuff taken away.
Well it depends, if my neighbours treat me like a "witch" was treated in the HRE I would probably prefer the inquisition, also if was treated like some violent mobs treated religious minority across the Christian and Islamic world then again the inquisition is possibly better.
Obviously the inquisition did not exist in a vacuum and ultimately communal violence existed in Spain as well, but at that point we are talking about Spanish society in general and not specifically about the Inquisition which was in many aspect subordinate and derivative from Spanish culture and society that was dealing with forced converts and distrust of "New Christians" for more than a century before the inquisition existed.

Going back to the comparison, when the inquisition compared to other situations were there was less communal violence then the inquisition is potentially worse but then again we would need to know how exactly how other tribunals treated their accused and convicts and the number of said convicts.
No one in this thread accused the Spanish Inquisition of doing anything they did not do, or accused it of causing anything it would not have logically done (and yes, converts would have been afraid of the Spanish Inquisition--duh).
Well the source you linked took for granted the idea that the inquisition stifled economic growth or somehow discouraged "thinking for oneself" in general, as if heresies and not being Christian was the extent of "thinking for oneself" in early modern Spain, never mind the fact that presence of protestants in Spain was minimal at best to begin with and the inquisition had little to work with on this front(I guess we can pretend that the less than a thousand people prosecuted and the inefficient censorship was all it took...).
This very idea of connecting persecution to economical success is incredibly bizzarre when places like England and the Netherlands were relatively more advanced despite being very discriminatory against Catholics themselves.
 
Well it depends, if my neighbours treat me like a "witch" was treated in the HRE I would probably prefer the inquisition, also if was treated like some violent mobs treated religious minority across the Christian and Islamic world then again the inquisition is possibly better.
Oh no, you're missing the context--Fabius Maximus would rather deal with the Inquisition than have his modern neighbors, in the present day, ostracizing him over his political beliefs. He would rather deal with the Spanish Inquisition than not be invited to the neighborhood barbecue.
Well the source you linked took for granted the idea that the inquisition stifled economic growth or somehow discouraged "thinking for oneself" in general, as if heresies and not being Christian was the extent of "thinking for oneself" in early modern Spain, never mind the fact that presence of protestants in Spain was minimal at best to begin with and the inquisition had little to work with on this front(I guess we can pretend that the less than a thousand people prosecuted and the inefficient censorship was all it took...).
This very idea of connecting persecution to economical success is incredibly bizzarre when places like England and the Netherlands were relatively more advanced despite being very discriminatory against Catholics themselves.
On the other hand, we know that persecution can lead to economic problems, because wealth and poverty can be transmitted intergenerationally. If a community was subject to heavy persecution by the Spanish Inquisition--say it was heavily Jewish up until all Jews had to convert or leave, then the people there were widely suspected of false conversions--it makes intuitive sense that confiscations of property, imprisonment, and the social difficulties caused by Inquisition trials led to poverty, and this poverty was transmitted generationally.

Now, that something makes intuitive sense doesn't mean it actually happened, and I wouldn't try to connect Spain's current economic problems to the Inquisition; that's ridiculous. But you can see how the basic idea makes some amount of logical sense.
I'm sure you know full well that those aren't the only views which modern society taboos. Or, if you don't, that's probably because you tend to take them for granted, just like most 16th-century Spaniards would have taken their taboos for granted.
Those, and ones that are functionally identical, are really the main ones which are taboo enough to get a reaction even close to the one being Jewish or Muslim could get you in Inquisition-era Spain. Most of the things that get identified as "taboos" these days are believed by significant fractions of the population. There are certain beliefs which are relatively taboo within certain limited communities, but the people who get targeted tend to be the ones with more money and power to begin with (because they're the ones that hit the news), so they have a much easier time pursuing alternative livelihoods than I would have once I got tossed out of Spain for being Jewish.

Like, you note that historians with your view find employment and aren't socially ostracized. But "Spanish Inquisition apologia" is on the same level in terms of "taboo-ness" among society as a whole as most of the other things you'd label as "taboo."
It's true, if I'd been raised in 16th-century Spain, I expect my views would be within the 16th-century Spanish mainstream. Even if they weren't, though, I'd at least benefit from the fact that the views which the Inquisition would punish you for expressing were pretty explicitly laid out and stable over time, which is an advantage over the current system of taboos.
Or you could be born Muslim or Jewish. That would suck for you, wouldn't it?
Lots of historians reject the notion that the Spanish Inquisition was some uniquely awful thing, and some of them even still have jobs and social circles. So, I don't think my position is some sort of extremist outlier like you suggest.
How many of them said dealing with the Spanish Inquisition was better than dealing with neighbors who don't like which candidate you have yard signs out for aside?
You said it turned Spain into a dystopia and is still harming the country's prospects two centuries after its abolition, that sounds pretty Black Legend-y to me.
I never said that, someone else said that it arguably made Spain more dystopian than the Triple Alliance (due, specifically, to the fact that the Inquisition was basically acting as the thought police, and the Aztecs didn't have an analogous institution), and I said there was some evidence to suggest it was harming the country two centuries after its abolition. The latter is indisputably true, even if you don't think it's good evidence.
 
I'm sure you know full well that those aren't the only views which modern society taboos. Or, if you don't, that's probably because you tend to take them for granted, just like most 16th-century Spaniards would have taken their taboos for granted.
You could say the same about the Aztecs and their human sacrifices.
 
I never said that, someone else said that it arguably made Spain more dystopian than the Triple Alliance (due, specifically, to the fact that the Inquisition was basically acting as the thought police, and the Aztecs didn't have an analogous institution), and I said there was some evidence to suggest it was harming the country two centuries after its abolition. The latter is indisputably true, even if you don't think it's good evidence.
> Accuses others of having taboo beliefs
> Defends large-scale human sacrifice and cannibalism

Yeah, I think I'm done with this conversation.
 
> Accuses others of having taboo beliefs
> Defends large-scale human sacrifice and cannibalism

Yeah, I think I'm done with this conversation.
Don't stick words in my mouth. I never said human sacrifice was acceptable, I said it wasn't worse than murdering someone because they're a heretic, so the Aztecs weren't uniquely nasty. If you think that somehow means that 15th Aztec society was pleasant, well, maybe you should reconsider how nicely you view the societies I'm saying they're no worse than.

You, on the other hand, asserted that dealing with the Spanish Inquisition is better than getting shunned by your neighbors. Your reflexive defense of the Spanish Inquisition is to the point where you're trying to say that it would be better to face death or exile at their hands than get shunned for your Facebook posts, which is White Legend nonsense.

The mind boggles.
 
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You, on the other hand, asserted that dealing with the Spanish Inquisition is better than getting shunned by your neighbors. Your reflexive defense of the Spanish Inquisition is to the point where you're trying to say that it would be better to face death or exile at their hands than get shunned for your Facebook posts, which is White Legend nonsense.

The mind boggles.
The vast majority of people investigated by the Inquisition were neither exiled nor executed.
 
The vast majority of people investigated by the Inquisition were neither exiled nor executed.
The vast majority of people who do something that might get them shunned by their neighbors, aren't, because no one finds out about it or no one cares enough to make a big deal out of it.. And the vast majority of people shunned by their neighbors recover socially.

And quite frankly, I think that if it came down to it, you'd rather face your neighbors shunning you than a three percent or so chance of death.
 
The vast majority of people who do something that might get them shunned by their neighbors, aren't, because no one finds out about it or no one cares enough to make a big deal out of it..
By the same token, I'm sure most people who did something that might get them investigated by the Inquisition weren't actually investigated.
And quite frankly, I think that if it came down to it, you'd rather face your neighbors shunning you than a three percent or so chance of death.
Actually, no, if I were accused of a crime, I think I'd rather undergo a system with a small chance of imposing a severe punishment but from which I'd probably go free than a system with a very large chance of imposing a somewhat severe punishment.
 
By the same token, I'm sure most people who did something that might get them investigated by the Inquisition weren't actually investigated.
Fine. Restrict it to instances where people find out about someone expressing "taboo views" but nothing happens. That's still the vast majority of instances, to the point where the Spanish Inquisition had a much higher rate of punishment.
Actually, no, if I were accused of a crime, I think I'd rather undergo a system with a small chance of imposing a severe punishment but from which I'd probably go free than a system with a very large chance of imposing a somewhat severe punishment.
Oh, bullshit, your neighbors not talking to you does not even approach the same level of severity as executing you does. It could also be a damn long time before you went free, given that the Inquisition could and would detain people for years without trial.

You're also acting as if your neighbors aren't going to shun you after you got prosecuted by the Inquisition for heresy, which is a fucking laugh.
 
From what I've read, Paraguay under Jose Gaspar de Francia was pretty harsh and absurd.
Yeah, that was pretty bad. Kind of surprised people completely ignored your post. Francia at that time had absolute control on matters of the state, including civil matters. Basically you couldn't do a thing if you didn't have his approval, like marrying who you wanted or to emigrate wherever you wanted. Paraguay in those years were the closest thing to the North Korea regime we have right now.
But I would dare to say not only Francia's, but Paraguay just before the War of the Triple Alliance was a pretty dystopian place, overall. I mean, it's not like the Lopez were better than Francia, in that regard.
 
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