Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas

[PMN1]

For Dutch ships take a look at this thread from Post 6, Post 16 and Post 21 onwards, there is talk of 5 ships being built in German yards for the Dutch

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/all...ctly-estimated-qe-class-battleship-t8835.html

The Dutch order for 5 Battleships to be completed by 1917 (27 months from contract) would have been the largest foreign warship contract to date. There were many firms competing but Krupps were leading. Even British firms had recognized that the customer favored Krupp's weaponry and had tailored their offering to accept German turrets. They were poised to sign in September 1914 for 1st keel to be laid down by Dec 1914.

The battleships would probably have the same turrets as the Ersatz Victoria Louise (Mackensen) and would be a mini-Baden type but with a flush deck.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/diu2958mz6la2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0

The Dutch had already ordered Torpedo Boats from Vulcan (Z1-Z4 - later V105-V108 in German service) and the later Java class light cruisers were built with German design assistance from Krupp Germaniawerft.

The Dutch were also benevolently neutral to Germany. Aside form the trans shipments through The Netherlands in the Pacific the Dutch East Indies radio stations was copying on German Navy signals in the months after the war started. The Dutch would rather sell the DEI to GB or Germany rather than lose them to Japan. They were investing in defence and alliance value ships. This investment was about the same level of funding as proposed by the Australian Henderson Program (8BC Program) and probably yield 3 more ships for the Dutch in the 1920's.

While not officially adopted, the Henderson Program was used as a guideline for developing the RAN and the next BC was due in 1917 and the third BC in 1919.

Churchill was pushing for 3 ships to pacify his Cabinet colleagues in the lead up to the 1915 General Election. Building only 3 ships would reduce the Naval estimates but these 3 ships could be larger than usual and still be a reduction in the naval budget.

From the RN point of view, the Dutch program places 5 ships to foreign account in German hands, effectively doubling the German building program until they enter Dutch service in 1917-18. This potentially affects the 8:5 ratio agreed between Tirpitz and Churchill - the force level between the RN and HSF of 64 BB to 40 BB. Churchill wanted the Canadian ships as he saw Empire 'gifts' as not counting to the ratio. The Canadians said that if there was a crisis, they would fund ships and asked 'is there a crisis?' Churchill couldn't say that there was a crisis as he was telling domestic UK that everything was under control - don't panic. The Dutch program may constitute a crisis.

 

[naraht]

Is there much difference between American opinion on the War iTTL vs. OTL?

 

[sts-200]

Is there much difference between American opinion on the War iTTL vs. OTL?

Not much, no.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I wonder if the British can/will arrange for a convenient accidental fire to delay the commission of the Piet Hein?

 

[sts-200]

For Dutch ships take a look at this thread from Post 6, Post 16 and Post 21 onwards, there is talk of 5 ships being built in German yards for the Dutch
...snip...

Lots of good stuff there, well worth reading.

On a tangentially-related topic, the various pre-war British designs for customers all over the world are equally fascinating. I sort-of wish I'd managed to include a few of them in the story, although some are pretty fantastic; for instance Armstrong's design 686 of 1911, with eight 16"/45 and a bizzare secondary battery of six 9.4" and fourteen 6".

In the story, as OTL, none of those heavy ships were ordered.
However, the Dutch and their naval defence, the question of how far neutrality can be pushed or infringed and long-term German-Dutch relations might become more relevant ...

 

[sts-200]

I wonder if the British can/will arrange for a convenient accidental fire to delay the commission of the Piet Hein?

Ooo ... nasty.

Of course, both sides did as much in reality, but for now it would be a gross violation of Dutch neutrality ...
... and the British can think up plenty of other ways to do that.

 

[CV(N)-6]

Ooo ... nasty.

Of course, both sides did as much in reality, but for now it would be a gross violation of Dutch neutrality ...
... and the British can think up plenty of other ways to do that.

Newspaper headlines: German U-Boat(wink wink) sinks Dutch Battleship!

 

[SsgtC]

Newspaper headlines: German U-Boat(wink wink) sinks Dutch Battleship!

Way too easy for that to blow up in the UK's face. An "accidental" yard fire is far more plausibly deniable.

"Come now old chap, you can't seriously be accusing us of starting that fire. Dockyard fires are exceedingly common and happen in dockyards all over the world. It's just preposterous that you would think we would do such a thing." *Slowly nudges empty gas can with his foot until it's out of sight*

 

[Trevayne]

Way too easy for that to blow up in the UK's face. An "accidental" yard fire is far more plausibly deniable.

"Come now old chap, you can't seriously be accusing us of starting that fire. Dockyard fires are exceedingly common and happen in dockyards all over the world. It's just preposterous that you would think we would do such a thing." *Slowly nudges empty gas can with his foot until it's out of sight*

If they really wanted to sooth the Dutch point out it is only delayed another year or so and surely they have insurance?

AFIAK the British do not have a problem with a Dutch battleship or ships in 1919 or later. They are just worried about the Germans getting this one now. If completion is delayed until after 1918, then there is no problem.

 

[duckie]

If they really wanted to sooth the Dutch point out it is only delayed another year or so and surely they have insurance?

AFIAK the British do not have a problem with a Dutch battleship or ships in 1919 or later. They are just worried about the Germans getting this one now. If completion is delayed until after 1918, then there is no problem.

I Think the Dutch could accept that as an real concern (they can do the math themselfs), so offer the Brits an liason team onboard the Ship, with a good communication line to Britsch Embassy.

 

[SsgtC]

I Think the Dutch could accept that as an real concern (they can do the math themselfs), so offer the Brits an liason team onboard the Ship, with a good communication line to Britsch Embassy.

Except that would be seen as a clear move towards the Entente by the Germans. Either joining the Entente or selling the ship to them.

 

[Trevayne]

Except that would be seen as a clear move towards the Entente by the Germans. Either joining the Entente or selling the ship to them.

But they aren't doing either. They aren't joining the Entente and they aren't sell the ship to the British. They are just assuring the British that the ship will not be completed in time for the Germans to seize/purchase it for use against the British.

Question, could the British just pay the yard enough to cover their penalties in case of a delay? Say the ship is scheduled to complete in July 1917, with a $10,000 penalty for each month is late. The British give them $150,000 to ensure it is delayed by "technical problems" until summer 1918. Granted, the British would need to inspect and verify that the technical problems were real and would delay the ship.

 

[SsgtC]

But they aren't doing either. They aren't joining the Entente and they aren't sell the ship to the British. They are just assuring the British that the ship will not be completed in time for the Germans to seize/purchase it for use against the British.

It's the optics of it. Inviting the British to "monitor" the ship would be seen in Germany as a move towards the British. Not to mention that, in the Netherlands, it would be seen as an insult to their national honor that the British wanted to monitor it to begin with.

 

[sts-200]

But they aren't doing either. They aren't joining the Entente and they aren't sell the ship to the British. They are just assuring the British that the ship will not be completed in time for the Germans to seize/purchase it for use against the British.

Question, could the British just pay the yard enough to cover their penalties in case of a delay? Say the ship is scheduled to complete in July 1917, with a $10,000 penalty for each month is late. The British give them $150,000 to ensure it is delayed by "technical problems" until summer 1918. Granted, the British would need to inspect and verify that the technical problems were real and would delay the ship.

It's the optics of it. Inviting the British to "monitor" the ship would be seen in Germany as a move towards the British. Not to mention that, in the Netherlands, it would be seen as an insult to their national honor that the British wanted to monitor it to begin with.

Given the line everyone's walking, trying to avoid any incidents, potentially both sides might suggest, diplomatically, that the Dutch keep the ship in port while the war lasts, even once she's completed.
Although clearly the Dutch will want their new battleship operational, that might even make sense to them - her crew will need to work up, and doing that near Dover, Harwich, and German-occupied Belgium isn't exactly a safe training ground.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

Given the line everyone's walking, trying to avoid any incidents, potentially both sides might suggest, diplomatically, that the Dutch keep the ship in port while the war lasts, even once she's completed.
Although clearly the Dutch will want their new battleship operational, that might even make sense to them - her crew will need to work up, and doing that near Dover, Harwich, and German-occupied Belgium isn't exactly a safe training ground.

Of to the Dutch East Indies or the Dutch Caribbean Colonies for a shakedown cruise then?

 

[duckie]

Of to the Dutch East Indies or the Dutch Caribbean Colonies for a shakedown cruise then?

Yes, also the Dutch East Indies is also the reason for the Battleship(s), so let it know that it will leave the North Sea when ready, and also invited an German Observers, so that Germans know that English are pulling an fast one. LOL think about the "correct" scenes on the bridge of the Piet Hein....

 

[El Pip]

Not to mention that, in the Netherlands, it would be seen as an insult to their national honor that the British wanted to monitor it to begin with.

Even by Dutch standards that would be incredibly hypocritical. They are knowingly helping Germany to break the blockade, that has to involve a great deal of lying to the British - "Is this cargo all for Dutch internal use?" "Oh yes definitely", cargo then passed across the border into Germany.

They've proved they are entirely happy to lie to the British if they think it's in the Dutch national interest, they can't then get upset that the British then don't trust them. I mean obviously they can and probably will, but no-one will care.

 

[sts-200]

Of to the Dutch East Indies or the Dutch Caribbean Colonies for a shakedown cruise then?

Certainly her ultimate destination is the Indies, but whether they want to risk that with war on their doorstep...

 

[sts-200]

Yes, also the Dutch East Indies is also the reason for the Battleship(s), so let it know that it will leave the North Sea when ready, and also invited an German Observers, so that Germans know that English are pulling an fast one. LOL think about the "correct" scenes on the bridge of the Piet Hein....

Well, it would certainly be a good way for both British and German navies to each get rid of one of their most useless officers; the Sub-Lt Phillips' of their day...
'So Mein Heer Lieutenant, you are here to make we do not sail to Deutschland?'
'Oh, gosh no ... I don't care if you go to Deutschland, just so long as you don't go to Germany... just go out of the river and turn left.'

 

[sts-200]

For anyone who doesn't understand the above reference, it's a take-off of a show called 'The Navy Lark', as are any references to 'CPO Pertwee' (who was one of the characters) you may see in this or other threads.

Meanwhile, back in 1917...