Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[Glen]

Great timeline! I just have a few little questions: on the map you posted, it looks like British Louisiana is a separate colony to the Carolinas, Georgia and the Floridas? Just asking as there were a couple of posts speculating about the westward expansion of those colonies.

Haven't really gone into the administration of British Louisiana, but yes, it is under a separate Governor than the rest of the Southern Colonies, which are basically stop at the Mississippi.

Also, where does the Mexican flag come from?

OTL early flag of the Mexican revolution. I found this one on Flags of the World here.

 

[Glen]

mmm...perhaps. Mostly they were accused of being fanatics and attempting to create a controversy by whipping up a hype amongst the lower orders of the public. They never tried to redefine theology, they only sought to promote a lifestyle of extensive Bible study, except on smaller points such as the role of women in preaching. I say this as a Methodist myself Indeed, the Wesleys never attempted to leave the Church of England, they merely (IIRC) had the split forced upon them when they started making unlicensed ordinations of ministers in the USA when the Church of England cut the colonies off directly after the ARW.

I will bow to your knowledge on this. It's an interesting tid-bit.

However, that really wasn't my point, debating semantics. My point was that I identified in your update a definite highlighting of the sects which sought to essentially redefine scripture - including arguing against or attempting to somewhat tenuously re-evaluate the meanings of a lot of scripture to fit their religious views. The comment made about God creating the world and then withdrawing all involvement in it to let destiny run its course seems to directly contradict most of the Old Testament, for example,

As the Deists did OTL.

while the idea that one's wealth directly correlates to their Godliness appears to oppose every Jesus taught about giving away all worldly wealth and living humbly.

And is stolen whole cloth from the Puritans and other Predestinationist Protestant denominations. Blame Calvin for that one!

To the best of my knowledge, Methodism doesn't advocate any viewpoints nearly as controversial as these. Again, I wasn't trying to argue for or against this, I was merely wondering if you highlighted these just as some of the more extreme and interesting viewpoints to flavour your update, or if you were genuinely trying to suggest that in TTL, the Second Great Awakening, rather than a common Revival, was in fact the advent of the takeover of the Deist movement

The second, actually.

and other...radical redefinitions of Christianity, shall we say...in their path to becoming dominant in the USA.

Again, dominant is a bit strong in a pluralistic society like the USA. Say, rather, prominant!

 

[Glen]

Given the OTL state of Parliament, unreformed with a lot of rotten boroughs and plenty of ways to peddle influence, that can be a lot of power. Also, as the cotton industry develops there will be business interests who will want to avoid rocking the boat and disrupting business. Probably also concern, having lost half the colonies because of trying to influence them, there might be reluctance to upset them, at least while the planters are politically dominant

All absolutely true....for OTL as well as TTL.

in the dominion.

There's no Dominion....yet.

I would expect that pressure for abolition will development but will be hindered by the interests of the dominion and islands.

True on both counts. Stay tuned.

On the plus side the interests of the south and the manufacturers in Britain will be aligned and encourage co-operation.

Yep, especially the Textiles.

The US might go protectionist even earlier than OTL, although it may suffer as a result if it cuts itself off from European [especially British] products.

Steve

It's a thought. But remember that the US textiles are also getting their cotton from down South, so they can't push too hard on protectionism this early.

 

[Glen]

The Federalists were victims of their own success and internal infighting during the Presidential Election of 1804. Much anticipation had arisen around whether Adams would run for a third term or honor the example of Washington. As it turned out, Adams did honor Washington's lead and took himself out of the running early. While under the Federalist administration the United States had grown in territory, formalizing control of the Hudson Territory and adding the Missouri Territory (as the American controlled section of French Louisiana came to be called), and secured America's borders, still many Americans were growing tired and wary of the growing power of the Federal government. Also, Hamilton's High Federalists openly broke with the rest of the party over a variety of issues, though some claim the break was more to do with Hamilton's overweening pride and ego. Despite this, the election was the closest in memory, and many attribute the votes of the new state of Ohio to the final victory of the Democratic-Republican's perennial presidential candidate, founding father Thomas Jefferson.

Third President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson:

While the Election of 1804 had swept the Federalists out of the Executive Mansion, Jefferson had inherited American Louisiana, dubbed the Missouri Territory.

The Far Northwest had been dominated by fur trading companies, first the Hudson Bay Company, and then after the American Revolutionary War, the Northwest Company. While the Hudson Bay Company continued in the fur trading business after the war for a time, but in 1805 it was bought out by the Northwest Company. Prior to this point, most routes explored by the fur trading Northwest Company, had gone up the Saskachewan River and thence across the Continental Divide and along the northern rivers to the Pacific. Alexander MacKenzie had been the first to find this arduous route in the early 1790s. The MacKenzie River is named for him.

Alexander MacKenzie

Jefferson had long had an interest in exploration of the west with special emphasis on passage to the Pacific, and one of the first actions of his presidency was to set up an exploration of the new American territory, tapping his personal friend and aide, Meriwether Lewis, to follow the course of the Missouri and discover if possible a route from there to the Pacific. The expedition was able to do so and provided a tremendous amount of information about the new American West, as well as showing a viable southerly route to the Pacific.

Meriwether Lewis

With the development of the Missouri route, the more northerly route along the Saskachewan fell into relative disuse as a means to the Pacific, though it continued to be important for the fur trade east of the Continental Divide.

 

[Splatter123]

interesting, but I think maybe they would still call the territory Louisianna, and maybe have a more northern state of Louisianna, when they become states.

 

[Glen]

interesting,

Thanks!

but I think maybe they would still call the territory Louisianna, and maybe have a more northern state of Louisianna, when they become states.

The British are calling their part of 'Louisiana' Louisiana, so the Americans called their part of 'Louisiana' Missouri to distinguish. Given that they already had the Eastern side of the Mississippi, and the dominance of the Missouri River drainage basin in their region of the acquisition, and the fact that once the state of Louisiana split off the rest of the Louisiana purchase was named Missouri Territory, I think its a reasonable extrapolation.

 

[Glen]

And we've broken 3,000 views. Thank you, Dear Readers!

 

[Glen]

Darn, I was playing with effects for one of the early maps, but the file's too big!

 

[Glen]

While the Election of 1804 had swept the Federalists out of the Executive Mansion, Jefferson had inherited American Louisiana, dubbed the Missouri Territory.

The Far Northwest had been dominated by fur trading companies, first the Hudson Bay Company, and then after the American Revolutionary War, the Northwest Company. While the Hudson Bay Company continued in the fur trading business after the war for a time, but in 1805 it was bought out by the Northwest Company. Prior to this point, most routes explored by the fur trading Northwest Company, had gone up the Saskachewan River and thence across the Continental Divide and along the northern rivers to the Pacific. Alexander MacKenzie had been the first to find this arduous route in the early 1790s.

Alexander MacKenzie

Jefferson had long had an interest in exploration of the west with special emphasis on passage to the Pacific, and one of the first actions of his presidency was to set up an exploration of the new American territory, tapping his personal friend and aide, Meriwether Lewis, to follow the course of the Missouri and discover if possible a route from there to the Pacific. The expedition was able to do so and provided a tremendous amount of information about the new American West, as well as showing a viable southerly route to the Pacific.

Meriwether Lewis

With the development of the Missouri route, the more northerly route along the Saskachewan fell into relative disuse as a means to the Pacific, though it continued to be important for the fur trade east of the Continental Divide.

With the heart of the Missouri Territory explored, the next task Jefferson set his administration to was defining the border with Spain. While the United States border with the British South was relatively well defined at 36-30, the point where it would head north upon reaching Spanish territory was not. Spanish negotiators had a keen interest in keeping that border a reasonable distance from the main city of New Mexico, Santa Fe. On the other hand, having the US close at hand as a counterbalance to the British who also were closer to Santa Fe (though not yet clarified how close) than the Spanish would like. Eventually, the parties decided that the Spanish/American border would start at the 102nd meridian west, heading north to the Arkansas River, thence along the Arkansas River to its source, and North from there to the 40th latitude north.

Here, the Jefferson administration was more successful than they had anticipated. Jefferson had instructed his envoys to negotiate for recognition of an American corridor to the Pacific. The Spanish not only agreed in theory, but for a price were willing to settle on a line as far south as the 40th parallel north. Spain was in significant need of improved finances as a result of their involvement in the Napoleonic Wars. While this was more than President Jefferson had sought, the chance to secure not just a corridor to the Pacific, but one that gave a significant buffer to the main route to the Pacific was too good to pass up. Thus the Transcontinental Treaty of 1806 included the purchase of Spanish rights to the Pacific Northwest as well as settling the border with Spanish North America.

 

[Glen]

Well, I got those links and a new map in for the Transcontinental Treaty of 1806 between Spain and the USA. I'm becoming increasingly disenchanted with the rivers on these maps, though. Might have to switch base maps, or at least supplement.

 

[Splatter123]

so america has already achieved its manifest destiny, maybe Mexico will be more powerful with a large portion of califorinia?

or maybe the Brits'll just be the ones to beat them down?

 

[stevep]

so america has already achieved its manifest destiny, maybe Mexico will be more powerful with a large portion of califorinia?

or maybe the Brits'll just be the ones to beat them down?

Splatter123

Possibly, or could still be a clash between Mexico and the US at a later date. The former still has a lot of the best land in the west including where the gold is so if that's still the 1st big find there could be tension with a lot of Anglos flooding into the region.

Or, with a bit of stability and better leadership than OTL Mexico could be a lot more successful. After all with two powerful neighbours it can try and play them off against each other to some degree.

Steve

 

[stevep]

Glen

On your map there's no sign of any British influence on the NW coast. This came by sea OTL so wouldn't be affected by the loss of Canada and the north. Is there still a British interest there or has it made some deal with the US conceding interests in the territory?

I would expect Britain to still seek trade there, especially given that its lost its OTL fur trade contacts via Quebec and the HBC.

Steve

 

[Glen]

so america has already achieved its manifest destiny,

Somewhat, to be sure.

maybe Mexico will be more powerful

Perhaps.

with a large portion of California?

Mayhaps....

or maybe the Brits'll just be the ones to beat them down?

Time will tell. I would have to say all of the above are possible at this stage.

 

[Glen]

Splatter123

Possibly, or could still be a clash between Mexico and the US at a later date. The former still has a lot of the best land in the west including where the gold is so if that's still the 1st big find there could be tension with a lot of Anglos flooding into the region.

Quite possibly, although if you're thinking Americans, they'd call them that or Yankees. Anglos are the British and their Southerners....

Or, with a bit of stability and better leadership than OTL Mexico could be a lot more successful.

Couldn't be much worse!

After all with two powerful neighbours it can try and play them off against each other to some degree.

Steve

That is certainly their thought. Let's see if they can pull it off.

 

[Glen]

Glen

On your map there's no sign of any British influence on the NW coast. This came by sea OTL so wouldn't be affected by the loss of Canada and the north. Is there still a British interest there or has it made some deal with the US conceding interests in the territory?

Yeah, I wasn't quite certain how to show that on the map and I was in a bit of a hurry. The Brits are in fact still coming by sea there, but only to trade, not to stay, at least so far. While we are all aware of the overseas route, there was a lot of fur trading done overland. Here, the Americans have essentially exclusive access to the overland routes, and can still come by sea as well. The Brits can only come by sea.

I would expect Britain to still seek trade there, especially given that its lost its OTL fur trade contacts via Quebec and the HBC.

Steve

Have to check what Meares is up to....

 

[Falastur]

Have to say I'm amazed how quickly the Americans pressed for a corridor to the Pacific. Pretty much as soon as they got their hands on the Louisiana Territory, they just went for it, and with no outside stimuli either. It leaves the DSA with all the work to do, but one wonders if this will mean a completely different settlement pattern. I'm not expert on this period, but it seems to me one of two things would happen - either, with a route open to the Pacific, the Oregon Trail will happen a lot earlier and we'll be looking at a position where the interior is virtually ignored considering there's better land to colonise further west already, which could have interesting implications for, say, the Mormons, who will have to flee west to escape persecution and law charges but will no longer be able to flee as far west as to do so would mean running into a whole new, far better-settled, minefield.

The other alternative is that, with worse medical supplies, less time to slowly map the area, poorer infrastructure (there's not going to be a Pacific to Atlantic train line planned any time soon, for example, it would just be too expensive at this stage, and trains never even got out of Britain until the 1830s as they were guarded as national secrets by law) a safe route to the Pacific won't be forthcoming as quickly, and for those lucky few early explorers who make it, the Pacific will look like a turkey - without the more resilient, steam-powered ships of the 60s, plus a better economy, a working banking system, and greater positions for trade - no Japan opened to trade, and so on and so forth - and with no gold yet discovered, people will get to the Pacific and say "well, this is a bit of a disappointment". Consequently, the golden promised land of the other "shining sea" could suddenly be debunked and the drive to expand any faster than natural population density makes necessary could collapse.

In short, as a speculation, we could see a USA with either a far more depopulated midregion, or a far more depopulated western seaboard. Could be interesting.

 

[Falastur]

Oh, and as an aside (didn't feel like editing in case you missed it again, Glen ) I get the feeling that, provided the expected tensions between USA and DSA occur, the British will have more incentive for purchasing Alaska in this TL, if only for denial of opportunity. Could be interesting, finally seeing a TL where there's a British Alaska without a land connection to any other British territory.

 

[Glen]

Have to say I'm amazed how quickly the Americans pressed for a corridor to the Pacific. Pretty much as soon as they got their hands on the Louisiana Territory, they just went for it, and with no outside stimuli either.

It's part luck, part difference in emphasis. Here the Americans have come to dominate the fur trade in the north early on, and thus the Northwest is of more interest (and seemingly more accessible).

It leaves the DSA with all the work to do,

Depends on how you define 'work'.

but one wonders if this will mean a completely different settlement pattern. I'm not expert on this period, but it seems to me one of two things would happen - either, with a route open to the Pacific, the Oregon Trail will happen a lot earlier and we'll be looking at a position where the interior is virtually ignored considering there's better land to colonise further west already,

There will indeed be some differences, I think.

which could have interesting implications for, say, the Mormons, who will have to flee west to escape persecution and law charges but will no longer be able to flee as far west as to do so would mean running into a whole new, far better-settled, minefield.

Except there are no Mormons.

The other alternative is that, with worse medical supplies, less time to slowly map the area, poorer infrastructure (there's not going to be a Pacific to Atlantic train line planned any time soon, for example, it would just be too expensive at this stage, and trains never even got out of Britain until the 1830s as they were guarded as national secrets by law) a safe route to the Pacific won't be forthcoming as quickly, and for those lucky few early explorers who make it, the Pacific will look like a turkey

Well, it will take longer, but then again, they have more time. And remember that things aren't so great back home by comparison.

- without the more resilient, steam-powered ships of the 60s,

I don't know that they were that much more resilient.

plus a better economy, a working banking system, and greater positions for trade - no Japan opened to trade, and so on and so forth - and with no gold yet discovered, people will get to the Pacific and say "well, this is a bit of a disappointment". Consequently, the golden promised land of the other "shining sea" could suddenly be debunked and the drive to expand any faster than natural population density makes necessary could collapse.

At least until one or more of those happen....

In short, as a speculation, we could see a USA with either a far more depopulated midregion, or a far more depopulated western seaboard. Could be interesting.

Yep, but remember you need to compare those numbers to the same time from OTL, AND you have to remember that already there is less land in the South to go to. Well, time will tell!

 

[Glen]

Oh, and as an aside (didn't feel like editing in case you missed it again, Glen ) I get the feeling that, provided the expected tensions between USA and DSA occur, the British will have more incentive for purchasing Alaska in this TL, if only for denial of opportunity. Could be interesting, finally seeing a TL where there's a British Alaska without a land connection to any other British territory.

That would be interesting. Good luck getting the Russians to sell out to Britain, however!