Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.
Thank you, thank you very much.
Now i see it . I hope one of my anscestors names could appear, although i think i was a bit excessive with what i provided. (I think i named every known anscestor i got )
Oh, give it time - I've got over 150 years to cover still!
Welcome back, steve!
Indeed they have!
Thank you, thank you very kindly, sir.
Oh, they're doing quite well but they still have some growing to do!
Indeed, here the British learn a lot of the lessons that it would have learned twenty years later IOTL during the Crimean War. So by the time this war comes around...
In the west, yes.
Yes, as seen in Italy especially - Hungary would have been a biggie but they got curbstomped by the Russians. And yes, their own internal German politics are quite tricky.
They are, but its not nearly as organized as in Germany, without a friendly power on its border to provide aide and comfort.
Well, yes and no. I don't think that the Russians will be besieging Paris anytime soon, but remember they are starting from a rather far forward position, and there are just so many of them.
Oh, I don't know about that, the Austrians and Russians have some resources to draw from finance-wise, but in terms of industrialization you are spot on.
All good points, and more or less true - and if not the princes, the people are anxious to join once the jackbooted feet of Prussia or Austria are off their necks.
Good points. Yes, it seems as if the West will be much more important if this Germany comes off, and yes, Hanover isn't going to make everyone be Hanoverian the way the Prussians tended to do in OTL's Germany.
Just what I was thinking. Still going to be numerically small compared to the other armies but going to punch some way above their weight. Also I can see a lot of rifles reaching the German allies - might be a bit more awkward from both sides in terms of supplying the French forces.
I admiot I can't see an independent Poland being established but I can see it being a continuous running sore, especially lying as it does across the Russia lines of logistics. Similarly with other places like Hungary the distraction of the conservative powers will weaken their hold and encourage continued unrest. Conversely this means they will need to keep forces in those areas to maintain their control. Not a major factor possibly with the sheer manpowers available to the eastern powers but a continued source of stress.
Numbers could actually be a serious problem for the Russians. They had great difficultly getting reinforcements and supplies to the Crimean OTL. Now they must march through a restless Poland and their German allies to reach the front. With few railways at this point and the rivers running mainly north-south this will mean a lot of marching and many, many horses to move artillery, munitions and supplies etc. They can possibly try living off the land for foodstuff but that will not be popular with the locals. [Thinking about the Prussians they will be marching through let alone the western Germans they will be fighting] and can only be done so far.
Also in OTL Crimean I think the Russian army was rather a paper tiger. A lot of the force was still equipped with muskets and much of the tactics were Napoleonic. That was one important reason they got so badly mauled by the allies with rifles. If the British army is introducing repeater rifles [presuming no major bugs with the design which of course is a BIG point] the Russians are going to get very badly mauled. Also they will be operating in foreign and largely hostile territory which will mean greater problems for the inadequate Russian logistical system and problems in terms of intelligence on enemy movement.
I'm not saying it's going to be a walk in the park for the allies but with a Britain which has cleared out at least some of the deadwood after the Slaver war, Germans who are well-educated and highly motivated and a powerful French army they will have huge advantages. The Russian soldiers are numerous, brave and very tough but poorly led, equipped, supplied and trained. They are going to take huge losses when they met dug in allied forces and then are going to have to hold any gains against a hostile population which will drain further forces from their OOB. Once the initial relatively well trained professional forces are expended, which could happen fairly quickly, they are also going to have to find the resources to equip new recruits, which could be difficult with no foreign suppliers to aid them. [Prussia and Austria having their own serious problems and the other industrial powers being in the hostile camp]. Can Russia rapidly ramp up it's own arms production?
Some resources but both Austria and Prussia have serious internal problems affecting revenue raising, as well as being a serious drain in themselves. Also since the mid-17thC the Netherlands and then Britain were vital for the various alliances against Louis XIV and his successors because only they could really fund massive alliances. Furthermore the main international creditors at this time are Britain and France and their not going to be making foreign loans to their enemies. Coupled with the effect on the credit rating of powers, external funding will be limited and very expensive while the internal tax base will be fairly limited. [Internal disruption in Prussia and Austria and a very primitive economy in Russia]. Hence I think their ability to sustain a long war will be limited and going to generate a lot of opposition as taxes go very high very quickly.
And once the people get the chance any intelligent prince will be eager to follow the people, if only to keep their thrones. Bavaria could be the most important state here as the biggest 'other' state and a traditional rival to Austria in the south.
Good. Could make for some problems ahead as if France goes reactionary at some point or simply finds a developing Germany a serious economic rival the latter, with Prussia and Austria to it's east could find itself very exposed.
I am presuming with Britain and France on the same side there will be no real colonial conflicts. Don't think there's anything really the eastern powers have up for grabs. The differing geographical position makes it even less likely that Britain/DSA are going to make a bid for Alaska.
The only other front might be with the Ottomans but not sure what the situation would be there. OTL the empire was rather weak having seen an alliance of powers help secure Greek independence and been nearly overthrown by it's Egyptian subordinates. Not sure how much of that has occurred here or whether a Muhammad Ali equivalent might be tempted by Russia to join them in opening up a new front in the south. Although this is likely to strain the Russians even further, not to mention cause concern amongst the Austrians.
Italy could also be interesting. With the Neapolitan kingdom proving fairly successful and influential in Rome it might form a rival to the Savoyard dynasty in the north. As such not how Italian nationalism will be affected, especially if the southern monarchy is reformist and liberal rather than reactionary.
Anyway, looking forward to hearing more.
The British will probably keep the Germans supplied with their last generation guns, not the latest and greatest. The French can supply their own guns, and will likely play catch up quickly - then again, so will the Prussians and others.
Yes, that makes sense.
And yet they pulled it off IOTL several times. We shall see.
The British are still using mostly single shot breach loading rifles, but their cavalry and raiders are using the equivalent of early Henry Repeaters. They're not perfect, by any means - but they will get the job done.
A very good point. Hanover in the North, Rhineland in the West, Bavaria in the South, and Saxony in the East - these maybe are the cornerstones of the new nation?
Ah, such is life.
I suppose that may be - but things can change of course...
Egypt's still well ensconced in the Ottoman Empire, and Mohammad Ali became the Grand Vizier of the Empire.
Yes, rather interesting potentially.
Glad to hear it!
Too tired to post update - tomorrow, tomorrow, I'll update, tomorrow, it's only a day away....
Christian VIII had started his career as sympathetic to liberal causes, but by 1850 he was King of Denmark but bound by the politics of the day to placate the conservative camp in his own nation, and compounding that was the rise of nationalism in Denmark over the past several decades. When the troubles in the Germanies broke out in 1849, many German nationalists called for both Holstein (predominantly German) and Schleswig (mixed but predominantly Danish) to join the new German nation. The Danish nationalists would have been content to let Holstein go its own way, but fought to hold on to Schleswig. The friction between nationalist camps over the borderlands, exacerbated by the lack of sons by the heir apparent, seemed to be pushing Denmark into the camp of the Eastern Powers, especially as Russia backed Danish claims most fully.
and Denmark enters the war.
Not to sure if they are really gonna have a Major impact besides Postwar gains and losses
Glen, I will keep reading this TL no matter what, but as a proud Danish-American, I do hope the Danes don't end up worse than OTL like they always do.
True - but it is needful to set the stage one what is going on in the theatre to understand the outcomes.
The entry of the British into the Liberal War cut off any hope of Russia that the fighting in Europe would be short, cheap, or easy. While the Netherlands were neutral, the rates they would charge for funding the war through loans was prohibitive, and of course Britain could fund their side with ease. And so Russsia found itself in need for funds in a hurry.
The United States of America, feeling flush from the gold rushes of the West Coast and the prosperous trade of foodstuffs to the Dominion of Southern America, was in a good position to offer Russia funds. The problem was that the only thing to unite the Democrats and Federals was their support for the Entente in the Liberal War, so a chance at a favorable loan was fleeting. However, the United States was interested in continued expansion of her frontier, and the once powerful Northwest Company was still a political force in Congress, and had long been stung by being shut out of Russian Alaska. Therefore when the Russians broached the idea of selling Alaska, it received a favorable hearing in the halls of Congress. However, the Americans drove a hard bargain, and the land of Alaska went for cents on the dollar of what it might have in less desperate times for Russia. The deal became known as the Pickering Puchase (sometimes the Pickering Steal) after the Secretary of State who brokered the deal, Charles Pickering.
in this Alaska purchace, did they know there was gold/oil there?
Nope. No clue at the time.
And with that, Manifest Destiny has had it's fill...
Unless the USA goes into colinization elsewhere of course.
Jest please tell me this TL isn't going to quickly turn into a Dane-screw...
Define worse...hey, at least Christian is still alive!
Fair enough. What are the odds of the Pan-Scandinavian movement around this time succeeding in uniting Scandinavia?
While it had been a tradition from before the American Revolutionary War for Southerners to enlist in the British Army, and thus several individual Southrons fought in the Liberal War, before this time no completely Southern unit had fought overseas for the Empire (with the exception of the Sable Legion, though this was in Africa). George Turner of the Province of North Carolina sought to change all that. Colonel Turner raised the Southern Volunteer Regiment, nicknamed the Cavaliers, to fight in Europe in the Liberal War. Turner's Cavaliers would see action in the Germanies, launching raids deep into the lines of the Prussians and Russians. The Loyalist Yell they shrieked brought as much terror to their enemies as the wail of the bagpipes of the Scottish regiments they would face on the line.
A statue of Colonel Turner in Hanover
Pickering Steal... I love it! and with that the issue of Alaska is finally settled...
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