Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

First of all, congratulations! What are the stats on the baby?:)

Thanks for the congrats. baby boy is 8 lbs 9 oz and 20 1/2 inches. (Sorry as an American, I have no idea how that translates into metrics, for any readers who hale from the other 90% of the world):rolleyes:

We've tried to keep the timeline humming along.

Yes, and now you have reached the episodes that I have been waiting for, I am glad to be back.



Thank you so much for your very kind words! Bring friends!!:D

I will do my best.
 
Glen, I would love to see some specific demographic and other statistical information regarding the BSA at this crucial time in its history. While you have given us some snipets of info, (e.g. - there is a higher percentage of slaves in the BSA than in OTL's South), I would be very interested in knowing about the free blacks - is there a sizable population? What about poor landless whites, how large a percentage do they have? What about cities, towns, etc. - which are the largest, most important? What else can you tell us about middle class (and more or less, non slaveowning) whites? What about industry? infrastructure? manufacturing? other trading and export goods other than the obvious cash crops? culture? religion? politics?

I know that's alot, but it would help me (and hopefully others) visualize what the BSA was like in 1835.:)
 
And...here we go...
Now, couple questions:
1. Did the Caribbean dominions of the DSA declare independence as well? That will impact the British greatly, particularly if the Caribbean secessionists were able to seize any of the ships of the Caribbean squadron.
2. If, as is generally expected, the revolution fails, where will the irreconcilables go? The US won't want them and the British won't want to keep them in the area. Hmm, I suspect a lot of ex-planters are making that long, long trip to Botany Bay if the revolution fails.
"Oh my heart, my heart is in Dixy,
Though I languish in Botany Bay."
Of course, if the revolution succeeds, what happens to the loyalists, and free blacks?
My suspicion: a much, much bigger Sierra Leone for the free blacks, and the loyalist planters will go...to the Cape colony? Do the Brits still have that ITTL?

Perhaps if it fails, the slave owners can flee to Texas. If I recall, it hasn't banned slavery yet, and it's just right over the border.
 
Perhaps if it fails, the slave owners can flee to Texas. If I recall, it hasn't banned slavery yet, and it's just right over the border.

I suspect that could be the most likely option, or Brazil if its still a slave state. Would expect the slavocracy to lose as its exposed to unrest from below - both black slaves and poor whites having an interesting in overthrowing them, although too many blacks rebelling could make a lot of the whites nervous. Also the south is markedly small than OTL's confederacy and its going up against the most powerful state in the world.

I doubt if that many Americans would feel like supporting the rebels. There could be some unrepentant anglophobes out there but supporting slavery and picking a fight with your most important trading partner isn't likely to appeal to many.

If a number of ardent slavers and white supremacists do flee to Texas that will complicate the situation there as it will introduce a 3rd group hostile to both the pro-British and pro-American ones there already.

Steve
 
I suspect that could be the most likely option, or Brazil if its still a slave state. Would expect the slavocracy to lose as its exposed to unrest from below - both black slaves and poor whites having an interesting in overthrowing them, although too many blacks rebelling could make a lot of the whites nervous. Also the south is markedly small than OTL's confederacy and its going up against the most powerful state in the world.

I doubt if that many Americans would feel like supporting the rebels. There could be some unrepentant anglophobes out there but supporting slavery and picking a fight with your most important trading partner isn't likely to appeal to many.

If a number of ardent slavers and white supremacists do flee to Texas that will complicate the situation there as it will introduce a 3rd group hostile to both the pro-British and pro-American ones there already.

Steve


Steve:
yep, my suspicion is similar re: Britain winning. Also, in some ways, Britain circa 1835 is better prepared to fight revolutionaries than Britain circa 1776: better government, stronger army and navy and so on. Oh, and also the French aren't likely to jump in on the side of the southern rebels.
US: again, I agree. They'll be in much the same position as Britain during the ACW: "we'd like to stick a thumb in Britain's eye, but we don't stand to gain much and slavery sure is icky." You might see some Americans head south to aid the rebels as individuals, but not, I think in any strength.

Texas: if the irreconcilables did go there it would pretty much guarantee Texas stays independent. However, Texas would literally be surrounded by free nations, so how long could slavery really last?
 
OTL the Northern states had a black population of >3%. With 3rd~4th+ generation Blacks opposed to the Southern Blacks moving north.*

Now the Population totals are different ITTL, with Virginia in the Union, and most slaves having been sold south.
However I can't see a northern Black Population < 5%. And with the earlier freeing of Northern Blacks, I see the same intolerance of "Ignorant Stupid Lazy"** Southern blacks.


?So what is the US attitude toward Runaways, Slave Chasers, Free Blacks etc? ?And what kind of Border Patrols are there on both sides?

Bring this up - as if there is fighting in BNA whe will have some Slaves use the Confusion to try to Escape.

*They Supported Abolitionism. as long as the Free Blacks would remain in the South.

**This is one of the nicer things the northern Blacks called the Southern Blacks.
 
I suspect that could be the most likely option, or Brazil if its still a slave state. Would expect the slavocracy to lose as its exposed to unrest from below - both black slaves and poor whites having an interesting in overthrowing them, although too many blacks rebelling could make a lot of the whites nervous. Also the south is markedly small than OTL's confederacy and its going up against the most powerful state in the world.

Brazil must still be a slave state. OTL it had a slave population of 1/3 the entire population. It was so slave-filled that there are examples on record of street beggars who had slaves, literally most of the population had some number of slaves in their family. What is interesting is the multiple Brazils we now have. They will all have this slave overabundance, but how long will they take to ban the slavery? Or in fact, will they? My bet is on Portugal eventually trying to do what Britain is doing now, but without the stakeholders that North America has (the USA, the UK, etc) will they ever even bother trying to free the slaves in the rest of the Brazils? They won't have a superpower free state on their borders to pressure them, and they won't even have the big pro-manumission lobby that North America has here. Without someone like the USA or the UK actively threatening war if they don't release the slaves, it's entirely possible that those Brazilian states will never try to free their slaves, and if they do it's likely that it won't be a decision all the Brazils take at once. It could take 50 years or so to properly force all the Brazilian states to free their slaves, with so many governments to communicate with, and with their economies so heavily tied into slave labour - far more so than the BSA here. IIRC it was 1863 that Brazil finally freed its slaves, and even then it shook their economy for about 30 years. And with 4 different Brazilian states, their individual economies are going to be far weaker and less capable of dealing with change anyway.

Interesting times ahead. I look forward to seeing how Glen deals with Brazil. The division of it certainly grabbed my attention.
 

Glen

Moderator
The title of the thread suggests that the British will win the war and find an acceptable solution to this.

It does seem to suggest that, doesn't it?;)

However, at present it doesn't seem like the resulting peace is going to be very acceptable to the Southerners. I'm hoping that the slave-owners who took the King's shilling are a bigger minority than it seems currently,

A bit early to say, isn't it?

and hopefully the powerful middle classes will come out of the woodwork to support and join the loyal militias, and all in all break the power of the slaveocrats so that BSA doesn't continue to hold a grudge.

Which begs the question of how much of a middle class there is, doesn't it?

On the plus side, with the free blacks being armed for their protection

Well, armed to protect pro-London planters....:rolleyes:

it does suggest a good accommodation package at the end of the war, unlike the last time - they're setting the example (again) that they can fight on an equal level with the white settlers.

Not entirely sure I'm following you here. What do you mean by accommodation package? And when was the first example? Are you referring to Hispaniola (OTL Haiti)?

Come to think of it, I'll tell you what this TL needs (in my humble opinion) that I don't think I've seen anyone else try: it needs a story of heroism at the crunch point of the war with a black regiment marching at a critical time to save a key regular British army from being cut off, or something, thus letting both white and black people say honestly that the black soldiers were of utmost importance in winning the war.

Hmmmm.....(spoiler alert, do not quote!)sounds like a job for the Sable Legion!

That, or a black soldier saving a British general in the style of Richard Sharpe (of the Bernard Cornwell novels) or something.

Never read the books, love the Sean Bean series of shows!:D

That would be great :D and hopefully it would do wonders for racial equality in the years following, just like the British took a very healthy respect for the Sikhs when the Sikhs matched them for skill in battle time and again in the 1830s.

And don't forget the Ghurkhas! Still, respect and equality are not always found together....though its certainly a good start....
 

Glen

Moderator
And...here we go...
Now, couple questions:
1. Did the Caribbean dominions of the DSA declare independence as well? That will impact the British greatly, particularly if the Caribbean secessionists were able to seize any of the ships of the Caribbean squadron.

Patience, grasshopper, we will get to that in good time....

2. If, as is generally expected, the revolution fails, where will the irreconcilables go?

If it fails, that is a very good question.

The US won't want them

Don't be too certain of that; the US is very big, and needs people to tame the west, much like OTL....

and the British won't want to keep them in the area. Hmm, I suspect a lot of ex-planters are making that long, long trip to Botany Bay if the revolution fails.
"Oh my heart, my heart is in Dixy,
Though I languish in Botany Bay."

Oh, I do so like the imagery of that!:D Australia is a bit underpopulated ITTL....:rolleyes:

Of course, if the revolution succeeds, what happens to the loyalists, and free blacks?
My suspicion: a much, much bigger Sierra Leone for the free blacks, and the loyalist planters will go...to the Cape colony? Do the Brits still have that ITTL?

I think that a larger Sierra Leone is in fact likely no matter what else comes to pass. As to the Cape Colony, yes that is indeed in British hands pretty similar to OTL.
 

Glen

Moderator
Thanks for the congrats. baby boy is 8 lbs 9 oz and 20 1/2 inches. (Sorry as an American, I have no idea how that translates into metrics, for any readers who hale from the other 90% of the world):rolleyes:

Well, fortunately for an American myself, I have some familiarity with the English measurements in question:). That's a nice big boy! Congratulations once again.

Yes, and now you have reached the episodes that I have been waiting for, I am glad to be back.

Good to have you back....let's kick this baby into high gear!:D
 
Not entirely sure I'm following you here. What do you mean by accommodation package? And when was the first example? Are you referring to Hispaniola (OTL Haiti)?

IIRC after the OTL ARW the British offered all the freed slaves who fought in the black regiments a sum of land in Canada as recompense, though I might be thinking of someone else. In reality, many got their land but even more did not, which disillusioned many. I'm hoping the same disillusionment won't occur this time around.
 

Glen

Moderator
Glen, I would love to see some specific demographic and other statistical information regarding the BSA at this crucial time in its history. While you have given us some snippets of info, (e.g. - there is a higher percentage of slaves in the BSA than in OTL's South), I would be very interested in knowing about the free blacks - is there a sizable population?

Yes, there is a sizable population.

What about poor landless whites, how large a percentage do they have?

I suppose I could whip up some stats. In general there are a fair number in the mountains, and again West of the Mississippi. The rest are scattered throughout the swamps and bayous....and of course interspersed in the nooks and crannies between the big plantations.

There's a fair number What about cities, towns, etc. - which are the largest, most important?

Yes, quite right. The major cities are all port cities, either river or ocean, though there are some pretty large towns on the US-BS border.

What else can you tell us about middle class (and more or less, non slaveowning) whites? What about industry? infrastructure? manufacturing? other trading and export goods other than the obvious cash crops? culture? religion? politics?

I know that's alot, but it would help me (and hopefully others) visualize what the BSA was like in 1835.:)

Yes that is a lot! In fact, much of it will deserve its own entries!!

As a brief sketch, however, I will tell you that it is very much like the antebellum South along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts, though the lands between the Appalachians and the Mississippi are like the civilized tribes of OTL except more so. West of the Mississippi Louisiana isn't too far different from OTL, but the areas that would be OTL Arkansas and Oklahoma have more population than OTL in 1835, mix of plantation and freeholders, with more freeholders than in the East. There is somewhat more industry in this South than IOTL, but still not even as much as the 1835 North of OTL. They have to provide a little more for themselves given the North is another country, and the Mother Country is across the waves, but then again the Mother Country isn't all that keen on any local industry developing as an internal competitor. Infrastructure in the South here about the same as OTL, maybe a little bit more since they are competing some with the USA out of pride. The biggest differences is there is more shipbuilding in the South than OTL due to the ease of access to Live Oak for strong ships and London's need for a strong Navy in the Caribbean to protect those British possessions. Some of the biggest differences are actually in OTL Florida (here the British Province of East Florida). There are more British colonists here than OTL (those that were there never left, and several more have come in the years since the ARW). While there are some Indians, especially to the far South, Florida never became a haven for them like OTL since Florida wasn't on an international border ITTL. Similarly the Bahamas is less populated, more white, but still pro-slavery. Cuba is a mix of British and Spanish influences, heavy plantation culture there, though. Hispaniola has some slavery, but much more of a free black population, and slave numbers have been steadily shrinking there. Hispaniola is still a major economic producer and standard of living there is much higher at this time than OTL. Jamaica is pretty much the same, and the rest of the Caribbean is much like the British Caribbean of OTL around this time. British Guyana is bigger, has some more Dutch and French speakers, but otherwise very much like OTL.
 

Glen

Moderator
I suspect that could be the most likely option, or Brazil if its still a slave state.

Well, some of the Brazilian successor states do....

Would expect the slavocracy to lose as its exposed to unrest from below - both black slaves and poor whites having an interesting in overthrowing them, although too many blacks rebelling could make a lot of the whites nervous. Also the south is markedly small than OTL's confederacy and its going up against the most powerful state in the world.

All good points except whether TTL's South is really smaller than OTL....that remains to be seen....

I doubt if that many Americans would feel like supporting the rebels. There could be some unrepentant anglophobes out there but supporting slavery and picking a fight with your most important trading partner isn't likely to appeal to many.

Fairly divided and ambivalent feelings in the USA.

If a number of ardent slavers and white supremacists do flee to Texas that will complicate the situation there as it will introduce a 3rd group hostile to both the pro-British and pro-American ones there already.

Steve

Indeed it might. But who says things won't be complicated?:D
 

Eurofed

Banned
All good points except whether TTL's South is really smaller than OTL....that remains to be seen....

Indeed I remain quite skeptic that TTL South would be any smaller and weaker than OTL. Quite the contrary is wholly feasible and indeed likely. Sure, they lack Virginia, but I see no really good reason why they should not get all the other OTL state, and most of the Caribbean. The latter balances Virginia more than enough, even if Hispaniola might swing towards loyalty to Britain, given its large free black population (ITTL Hispaniola could be the West Virginia equivalent). IMO Britain is not going to have it any really easier than the Union crushing the rebellious slaveocracy.

Fairly divided and ambivalent feelings in the USA.

Which roughly matches UK attitudes about OTL ACW. Only TTL USA are going to be even more so, their sense of American solidarity and political loathing of British system clashing with their even stronger loathing of the slaveocracy. Conflicting attitudes are totally going to cancel themselves out and leaving the USA a confused ambivalent neutral IMO.

Of course, with the right political-diplomatic butterfly it would be quite possible to have the USA intervening on the rebels' side, slavery or no slavery. Say Britain getting quite annoyed at US trade with the rebel colonies and using its typical heavyhanded means to quash it. The RN messing with USA trade could make things go downhill with the USA rather easily.
 
Hey, I liked it!:D


Glad to hear it. It could still happen of course; the Brits may want to make an example of some of the more aggregious rebels by exiling them. Even if the rank and file go to Texas in larger numbers, you could certainly still send a couple of shiploads of rebellious planters down under.
If you're doing it though, I call dibs on finishing that song I started. :)
 

Glen

Moderator
Steve:
yep, my suspicion is similar re: Britain winning. Also, in some ways, Britain circa 1835 is better prepared to fight revolutionaries than Britain circa 1776: better government, stronger army and navy and so on. Oh, and also the French aren't likely to jump in on the side of the southern rebels.

True. OTOH, they could be better yet....

US: again, I agree. They'll be in much the same position as Britain during the ACW: "we'd like to stick a thumb in Britain's eye, but we don't stand to gain much and slavery sure is icky." You might see some Americans head south to aid the rebels as individuals, but not, I think in any strength.

About right as to attitude, but events will determine actions....

Texas: if the irreconcilables did go there it would pretty much guarantee Texas stays independent. However, Texas would literally be surrounded by free nations, so how long could slavery really last?

A lot of people went there, but I suppose you are talking about if there is a war in the British South that the Southerns lose and then the die-hards move West to Texas. Yes, I think that slavery's days are numbered no matter what....
 
Just a note, Glen - I'll be going away until the 13th as of tomorrow, so I won't be commenting for a while (unless I find both an internet cafe and the time to use it...probably not likely). Just in case you were going to get worried about me ;) I'm not abandoning ship on this thread :D
 
Top