Discussion Thread: Save the Old North

[DanMcCollum]

The Old North roughly refers to the region of Cumberland and Northumbria in Britain. Once the home to several powerful Brythonic kingdoms, much of the region was eventually subsumed by the Kingdom of Northumbria to the South and Scotland to the North. The memory of the region would go on to play an important role in Welsh literature and imagination.

But let's say that that doesn't happen. There were several times that the Anglish kingdoms of Bernicia and Deira we're overrun temporarily or were dominated by strong Cumberic Kings

So let's say history goes a bit different, Northumbria never unites, and both Bernicia and Deira are subsumed into the neighboring Brythonic kingdoms

How does this region and it's culture and language develop? How do they respond to incursions by the Vikings? Also, how does England eventuslly devop bereft of the Northumbrian lands?

I'm assuming the kingdoms would eventually come consolidate into one - though how this is done and who does thr consolidating is completely up in the air.

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

If I remember correctly, Strathclyde was also a Briton kingdom in the period before Northumbria's unification. They could have a part in the events to follow, whether as a vector for Old-North unification or a pathway for Gael-Pict armies on a southward invasion.

As intriguing as the effects are, I can't help but feel like the Danish raids would end up producing a situation very similar to OTL anyways. Briton North unifies for a time, is turned into a Danish outpost for a time, then the Scots and South-English pick up the pieces of a kingdom that its own inhabitants barely remember living in. That's more or less how the unification of the Heptarchy went. Maybe you'd have a massive Scottish Principality of Strathclyde going down to York, or an English Duchy of Northumberland going to the Hebrides, or a partition that puts the border within a few miles of OTL's.

Even if the Britons become the Over-Kings of their backyard, they're hardly safe.

 

[DanMcCollum]

If I remember correctly, Strathclyde was also a Briton kingdom in the period before Northumbria's unification. They could have a part in the events to follow, whether as a vector for Old-North unification or a pathway for Gael-Pict armies on a southward invasion.

As intriguing as the effects are, I can't help but feel like the Danish raids would end up producing a situation very similar to OTL anyways. Briton North unifies for a time, is turned into a Danish outpost for a time, then the Scots and South-English pick up the pieces of a kingdom that its own inhabitants barely remember living in. That's more or less how the unification of the Heptarchy went. Maybe you'd have a massive Scottish Principality of Strathclyde going down to York, or an English Duchy of Northumberland going to the Hebrides, or a partition that puts the border within a few miles of OTL's.

Even if the Britons become the Over-Kings of their backyard, they're hardly safe.

This is somewhat my avenue of thinking: The Cumbrians drive out the Angles but remain divided; one kingdom or dynasty rising for a while, only to have another rise to dominance a generation or two later. However, the remaining Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are busy fighting amongst themselves as well and, well, its not like there were ever a united ethnic front anyway.

Then the Vikings come, and this is what really spurs the unification on Cumbria into a single kingdom, but not the way in which you would think. The petty kingdoms fall, one by one, to the Danes who unify them into a single Monarchy under a Danish royal dynasty. As in OTL there is Danish settlement in the region and this leads to the creation of a hybrid Dano-Cumbrian aristocracy. However, these same elements are also what held forge a unique identity for the region - their Britons, yes, but the Danish influence makes them difference from the Cymru, and they're certainly not Saxons nor Gaels. Eventually, of course, the ruling dynasty and the Danish nobles 'go native' just as they did in OTL in Scotland, Ireland and Normandy. So Cumbria ends up leaving the Viking Age with a unique and peculiar identity; they're strongly attached to the North Sea trade and the Viking World, but they remain insular Celts.

Even in Cumbria ends up falling to one of their neighbors - Scotland or England being the most likely - I think their identity as a separate people with their own identity is fairly secure. And, its just as likely that they're the one manage to push north into Scotland, forging a Scotland that is equal parts Briton and Gaelic in nature.

 

[piratedude]

This is somewhat my avenue of thinking: The Cumbrians drive out the Angles but remain divided; one kingdom or dynasty rising for a while, only to have another rise to dominance a generation or two later. However, the remaining Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are busy fighting amongst themselves as well and, well, its not like there were ever a united ethnic front anyway.

Then the Vikings come, and this is what really spurs the unification on Cumbria into a single kingdom, but not the way in which you would think. The petty kingdoms fall, one by one, to the Danes who unify them into a single Monarchy under a Danish royal dynasty. As in OTL there is Danish settlement in the region and this leads to the creation of a hybrid Dano-Cumbrian aristocracy. However, these same elements are also what held forge a unique identity for the region - their Britons, yes, but the Danish influence makes them difference from the Cymru, and they're certainly not Saxons nor Gaels. Eventually, of course, the ruling dynasty and the Danish nobles 'go native' just as they did in OTL in Scotland, Ireland and Normandy. So Cumbria ends up leaving the Viking Age with a unique and peculiar identity; they're strongly attached to the North Sea trade and the Viking World, but they remain insular Celts.

Even in Cumbria ends up falling to one of their neighbors - Scotland or England being the most likely - I think their identity as a separate people with their own identity is fairly secure. And, its just as likely that they're the one manage to push north into Scotland, forging a Scotland that is equal parts Briton and Gaelic in nature.

So a bit like OTL norse-gaels then? (Cumbro-Danes?)

And depending on their relations with the cymru, they might be the ones to unify the island